I think we probably move in similar circles actually, although I'm maybe less fixated about school fees and what kind of car I drive.
not fixated about the car I drive. fixated about school fees. hell yes. two kids in school deserves fixation particularly when I want them to succeed and get the best education we can afford.
In Wilanow there are 20.000 people and in Konstancin 16.000. The whole population of Warsaw is 1,7m so those rich people in whose circles you move actually make up 2% of the population. By contrast there are more than 100.000 people in each of Wola, Targowek, Ochota and you may have noticed they mostly live in commie blocks, shop at Biedronka and go to work by tram not by 4x4.
but that is entirely my point. So many people living in one area all of the same or close to it income level- makes the average an inaccurate number to represent the wealth and spending in Poland.
Miasteczko Wilanow is a perfect example. New development. (clusterfck in my opinion, bad planning, but I digress) The apartments pretty much sell at the same price no matter which building- some more, some less. But they are selling and developers are still building--so how do all these people afford all of these apartments if they don't have the money?
The numbers simply don't make sense.
And this is just close to me. Sady Zoliborz is experiencing the same growth and development.
Pip, like you, I hate repeating myself. Some of the Larger developers are listed on the stock exchange. I would imagine that they employ staff to do market research with regard to the demand for new developments. These people are not stupid by any means. They adapt to the market. There are some fools on this forum who imagine that these companies are going out of their way to lose money by providing housing stock that will never be sold. Every week in the Warsaw Business Journal, the property section announces new starts for both commercial and residential projects, which, if you listen to some of the posters on here, are doomed to failure and the developers will go bust.
The fact that repossession of houses are not in the 10's of thousands and to my knowledge, no major development company has gone bankrupt is a minor detail. There must be a property bubble, it's just hard to find, sales have dropped, must be a bubble, prices have gone down a few percent, must be a bubble, some people cannot afford to buy, must be a bubble, banks are not lending for mortgages (banks are in trouble) must be a bubble.
When I see prices drop 50% over a year, then I will call it a bubble. When, as Milky agrees with his artical above, house prices increased by 100% over a three year period, they have since fallen by lets say 25%, that is not a bubble. You would not lose any money by selling now unless you bought in the high end, if you bought a place to live in you do not lose.
but in any business there is going to be those who file for bankruptcy. And then another developer who is succeeding will come along and scoop up the land for a bargain price.
perfect example in Warsaw. You know this area next to Panorama shopping centre? It was bought by a Spanish company. They have been sitting on it for a few years because Spain got hit hard by the recession and I believe this company is now bankrupt. So it has been fenced up doing nothing. Guess who bought it---any takers? Well I know. Ikea bought it. They are moving into residential in Poland. They have prime land in Gdynia- next to the port and they are building high end apartments. Now they have land in Warsaw---and they will sell because they are Ikea and Polish people like Ikea.
Orco was starting up an Osiedle in Jozefoslaw very close to Piaseczno- I am not sure why they are bankrupt but their land has also been sitting fenced up. The thing about Jozefoslaw is that the area has no infrastructure, is prone to flooding and there is a heavy concentration of new construction homes. Same with La Village- the houses have gone from 1.4 million- down to 680,000--two years ago the osiedle was under water. would you buy a house for that price knowing that if there was heavy rain then it would get flooded?
the market is saturated- the prices are coming down, there is no bubble. ad nauseum.
How about Erbud, Leopard, Orco (in bankruptcy protection in France) ?
The majority of developers in Spain have gone bust, but we are talking Poland.
When I see prices drop 50% over a year, then I will call it a bubble.
According to that definition the has never been a property bubble, that sort of fall is unprecedented. Ireland's bubble has taken 5years to deflate. Down 50+%
Why would the government have worked on that developer law if there was not an issue ?
There was a scam in Krakow prior to the credit crises which had lot of publicity. Its to do with not allowing the developers to use the clients money to build and therefore avoiding delays and possible arguments with the developer, it also effectively stops the developer from altering the plans/price during construction.
By above average I meant, owning a car ( second hand ), sending my kid to a international pre school, visit near by countries, and save some money as well.
What do you mean by "international preschool", to be completely clear for everyone? Also, that sounds like everyone in my very large Polish family, they also all own their property (or are making mortgage payments), dress nicer than me, the "American" in the family. All in all, that just sounds like a Polish family to me. It's enough money for that, what you are being offered. It's enough money for American living standards as well, which is more expensive.
wait a second. the majority of the people that are flocking to the U.K. are general labourers who cannot make enough in Poland to buy a house. My carpenter pays his guys about 2000 per month. They are uneducated and have no hopes of making good money here so they flock to the U.K. and make their money to return to Poland and build their dream home.
This is not always the case though. There are many educated people that have left Poland too- they have assimilated and have started their lives over. The workers that you see drinking Tyskie by the tube stations will probably be returning to their villages and small towns and will never ever make 5000 k per month in Poland.
I'm just saying that in my family, they are all living in the conditions I stated above. Of course that isn't all Poles. Just like it isn't all Americans (of which around 50% live in poverty or low income). All of my family completed college and live in large cities, for example. Or at least completed college in a major city and moved to a small town to provide a service there. All of Poland isn't so dismal and gray and working at Biedronka, you know.
I am based in HUngary and have been now for over 15 years, salaries are catching up with Western Europe but it depends on which industry you are working in really and your position, location of the company is also important - if you are in a capital city or in a major regional capital like Krajkow then you are more likely to get a higher salary. Of course how difficult it is to find a suitable candidate is also a big help in pushing up salaries
I was wondering what is the salary for a technical position, for a recent graduate with no experience. Will 6000 (gross) be enough, assuming I would have to rent my own apartment.
Honestly, I wouldn't move to Poland for a job. Unless they have already stated some at least 15000 zł netto (about $4000/M after tax). Poland is expensive country to live. For example, I was in London for about 5 years. I can tell you right away that food, and I mean FOOD (not some cheap rubbish) is more expensive in Poland. Another thing is food variety, much better choice in the UK for example (or Germany).
Another thing TV, internet or mobile deals. No comparison. While in Poland you have guys and gals walking around exposing their Apple logo so everyone can see it, in the UK every regular person can get that in a normal cheap deal. Plus no playing smart ass because of the fact.
Cars in Poland. Not cheap, no matter used or new. Also, I would say stay away from used because most of them is a scrap from EU. Also, a lot of VERY dishonest sellers here o the market. They know how to pimp that ride so you think you are getting a deal but, after two weeks you will weak up and cry.
If you have qualifications try and get on a subcontractor role. You will earn much better but, on the other hand there are risks involved (especially in Poland where you are much more vulnerable for getting conned... Yep, conning is a big Polish skill and you should know about this. On every level of a leader...).
The best way to live in Poland is being owner of the company. I wouldn't advice moving here as a employee. Very unstable situation, people are not friendly. Of course, if you have a friend in management and he can guarantee that you won't get screwed or fired any time soon than go for it. But still, honestly there are MANY much better places to live.
I'm the owner of a company and can tell you that being an employee in Poland is like living with a razor on your neck. You never know what is going to happen. Unless you have right connections. Sad but it is what it is.
Think carefully about moving to Poland.
P.S Also, being educated in Poland means nothing. Connections means everything. Unless you are happy with something like $4000/M after tax. But, that's not much money to live on here.
@jedrzej I would disagree with you, because I moved here for a job and managed to live a decent life while being able to save money without earning as much as it was claimed here.
And about the media services, per say for internet I got a decent deal 50 zloty per month, unlimited traffic with download/upload up to 170/75 mbs; which happens to be cheaper than my home-country or the subscription I had in Denmark.
Cannot really complain about the food, I mean you can find many nice things but for its sole purpose is more than ok. Regarding the cars in Poland, similar situations can happen everywhere - not only in Poland, since it is a matter of luck and knowledge. I wouldn't advertise it so badly, because at the length of my experiences similar situations have happened in further more socially evolved societies. It isn't a matter of the things that might happen to you, but how you deal with it - as injustice is bound to happen everywhere.
One example of an unpleasant experience is how an acquaintance of mine was threatened and the police's response what that he should return to the country from where he is coming.
One example of an unpleasant experience is how an acquaintance of mine was threatened and the police's response what that he should return to the country from where he is coming.
I assume that was Denmark or somewhere else- not Poland?
That happened in Poland. I am sure there are two sides of the story, but there has to be a seed of truth to it.
The person was planning anyway to leave Poland. Xenophobia and discrimination isn't shocking news, whoever it's saddening when you see it developed into a system whose job is to protect its citizens and residents.
Thank you guys for your assistance. My relocation to Poland is temporary and short term. After which I am going to get a much better job. So that is why I am considering the move though the salary is really low.
It's "quite ok" only by Polish standards. That translates to only $24,000 US, less than the minimum wage for shelf stockers, floor sweepers and burger flippers in some parts of the US.
When foreigners come here asking about wages, they don't care about average wages for Poles, nor for average cost of living for Poles. Those numbers are totally irrelevant to foreigners. The number that counts, or should count, is how much they will be able to save up at the end of the month in absolute dollars.
considering that only 10% of Poles make 6,000 or more and that 70% of Poles make less than 2,700, we can easily say that 6,000 ZL is great in Poland (although only the minimum wage in Western Europe ;)).
If you are good at your job, move West where money is!
I just got an offer in Katowice for 11,500ZL gross salary, is it consider as decent salary for single professional ? Can you please advice me some rental portals for a flat in Katowice ? Thanks for all the info.
At current rates, that's a rather disappointing $37,000 US a year. Not at all decent on a global scale. Even with the (slightly) lower cost of living in Poland, your savings potential will be rather low in absolute dollars. Chances are that you can do much better with a job in a richer country, where it's quite possible that you would be able to save $37,000 US a year.
You are full of **** dominicB and need to stop talking this garbage.24k not enough 37k not enough.get a life dude.for your information median HOUSEHOLD income in the US is like $50 k or so.what do you make since you acting as if you were the smartest person on earth?a million a year?more?aren't you from Chicago or Illinois?let me see the mansion you live in.i am awaiting invitation.
