What do the Poles hate and love about the U.S.?

Because business is business and to hell with the people, right? :( It seems that way.

The issue had been raised publicly on plenty of occasions in the last 20 years or so, so it was not a secret to the US government that such policy would have been desirable for Poland but that was before Polish citizens were allowed free movement within EU yet US was always opposed to it. Visa free travel was always ignored by the US government and would have never happen. There are forces in the US that are strongly opposed to such Idea.

As to should have Poland tied that issue to some other deal with US, I personally think it’s none issue. Most Poles are not that keen on the idea of traveling to US anyway except for those who have immediate family there. Now that we are able to legally work within EU visa free travel is just a slap in the face for those who have family there or for those who might still have some positive sentiment left towards US. It is US which will ultimately lose by this opposition. Slowly but surely public opinion of the US is changing, people see that whatever deal was struck with US before US is reneging on and the reliability factor diminishes with each year passing, but I do think that this policy should be reciprocated on our part.

What part of "Military issues are under the control of national governments" is so difficult to understand? The same national govenrments are also responsible for visa issues (though Poland has of course delgated some parts of it). Are you really incapable of understanding that Poland had several bargaining chips and failed to use them?


What?

A Polish citizen cannot be granted a Polish visa! They will refuse an application for a visa from a citizen with unclear citizenship - they will be expected to obtain a Polish passport. Americans have the option of simply transitting through another Schengen country, then applying for the national ID card when in Poland. Or they can apply for citizenship when in Poland - the Foreigners Offices will extend tourist stamp validity as long as the application is being processed.

But if you're an American citizen with dual citizenship, there's no obligation to obtain a Polish visa because....they're full EU citizens!


Poland has sovereignity over long term visas (cat. D) though - the policy hasn't been harmonised at all and is unlikely to be harmonised for a long time, not least due to the way that EU countries cannot agree in the slightest on just who should be given them. Short term visas have of course been harmonised - but Poland has the flexibility to make the process very easy, as is currently exists with visas for Ukranians and Belarussians. It's quite messy, but it seems to work.


And who decides military policy? The American government/Congress. Therefore, if Poland had told America bluntly that their participation in NATO/Iraq/Afghanistan/missile shield was to be linked to the abolition of visas, the American government would have to have gone to Congress and get the law passed.

What's so difficult to understand about civilian governments directing military policy?


It was actually the perfect chance - if Republicans wanted the missile shield, then they have to allow Poles in without visas. Democrats probably wouldn't object - so Poland was really in a win-win situation. And they blew it.

I'm really struggling to see what Poland was actually getting out of the missile shield deal, apart from being seen as a 'first strike' target by Russia.

Didn't you hear, delph? It was to protect them against Iran, ROTFL. Schematics show clearly that Iran's current capability enables them to reach the Romania-Ukraine border and no farther. I'm glad that Poles saw through the lie.

Let's have a poll. The result, for me anyway, is a foregone conclusion. Do you feel more at risk without the missile shield? Float it. I feel safer.

I keep hearing this rationale, but fail to recognize how this is some big gift to America. First of all, one would have to assume that this war is entirely in America's interest and has nothing to do with the security of others, meaning that terrorism along with the threat of nuclear weapons would not affect other countries in Asia, Europe, etc. in the future if these terrorist groups were left alone. I don't want to argue reasons for going/staying in the middle east to fight wars, but you are in fact making the assumption that the only country that benefits from defeating world terrorism is America.....so every country fighting in this war deserves some sort of present for being there.

I'm sure you aren't suggesting that just Poland deserves something, right?

If the war in the middle east ends up protecting other countries from say a nuclear attack, would those countries then owe Poland for sending troops to Iraq/Afghanistan?

You mention NATO as a "bargaining chip".....does "NATO" stand for "The Organization of Protecting ONLY America"? One could argue all day long whether or not NATO is worth the money or how poorly it's run, but in the end NATO is an alliance for protecting its neighbors in time of need. Why would America then be obliged to give Poland some sort of present for joining? Sorry to say buddy, but America gains very little with Poland on their side regarding national security compared to what Poland has to gain.

Let's take a closer look at dear ole' Poland:

holocaust less than 70 years ago? check.

years of communism forced upon them by neighboring Russia, only ending 20 years ago? check.

an abysmal military if attacked by any bordering countries? check.

you tell me who deserves a gift.

Regardless of whether or not the Poles "deserve" a visa waiver when entering the states, the visa restriction on Poland is there for a reason and the Polish govt. along with many of its citizens know this reason, or reasons, all too well.

Besides, as you said Delphiandomine, "most Poles think America sucks," right?.....so what's the big deal? Who from Poland wants the visa waiver anyway? Who from Poland wants to go to such a "sucky" country anyhow? ;)

I guess the whole argument is moot after all.

Quite a few are getting presents for being there, whether they deserve it or not is another issue.
dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/03/12/foreign_aid/index2.html

I agree with you on NATO membership, that was a gift.

Why be so ******* enigmatic, spread it over!As I don't know the reason or reasons!


don't say, such a highly hypothetical nuclear attack from the middle east would be aimed against Israel and USA, Poland would have been a very unlikely target, anyway before Poland send troops to Iraq and Afghanistan to assist USA.

Funny thought, that by assisting USA with wars on "whatever you choose to called" Poland actually put herself in the line of fire!


Ah! I don't think so, nor for sending soldiers to fight wars nobody cares about in Poland, nor soldiers killed in action, nor for buying equipment from American corporation for over 3 billion $ Poland can ill afford!

In my opinion all above doesn't matter much as a bargain chip, all this could had been avoided as nobody forced politician's to do it.

However I cannot fail to notice that in case of visa waiver program Poland is being discriminated against, and as Poland soldiers are being slain on the foreign battlefields on USA government invitation,then I say, indeed it doesn't look good!


You fancy yourself that you do Poland some kind of favor?
Only bordering country which could win military with Poland is Russia and if Russia would like to launch an attack on Poland, USA reaction is yet to be seen :)

I doubt that USA would risk a war with Russia over Poland (nuclear weapon), so all this alleged favors are hypothetical one's.

Do you sill wanna gift? Yo' must be kidding

Yawwwn.. you need to try the decaf. You don't like NATO .. get the hell out of NATO. Like the whole thing would capsize or something. And yes, it is a gift to you. There won't be a war with Russia.. because of NATO.

hey Are you able to have proper debate, i doubt it, whoever your problem is ....i don't care, whoever you are i don't care.

I care only for a quality of your arguments, and they are poor, and most of the times you make a statement - it is so because i say so - **** it i don't care what you say, give me an argument, fact, information.

You like coffee, so do I, but I'm not drugs addict, and you sometimes sound like one
hope you are not high today:)

to the point!


well, funk you! do you want it back!


fine with me! We are leaving ! **** why Poland doesn't obey me /!:D


after we leave it can bust to dust for all I care.


ahw argument at least, well we could cut a deal with Russia, is not like they only waiting to attack us.

This is from the last census. The number of illegal Poles is very minor compared to other groups.

• 
  Chart
  

wow, what says you krysia and the others ?

Does that say the year 2000? If so, it's like 10 years out of date?

Not the best statistic to use when debating such matters I think?

The US Government Official sites will have more up to date data!

Lir
Not debating heavily, just trying to show the data from the last census, yes that was 10 years ago. New census will be collected this year. I doubt seriously that you will see a dramatic increase in illegal Polish immigrants compared to 10 years ago. Get serious, the biggest increase will be from Mexico, Central American and Several Asian countries. Most of the Polish people I know are well educated with good jobs and SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!!!

Yes it is overall.. but was has been pointED out to Iron Balls and others is that the Polish gov probably doesn't want lose all the people they PAID to educate to the US economy. They're in the midst of building a fairly formidable economy themselves. Makes sense, doesn't Iron Balls? No.. you just want to blame everything on the American.


Haha.. look who's talking. You typically just stamp your foot and yell, "YANKEE PROPAGANDA". That's the only rebuttal you can fashion.

regarding that chart of "data", besides the fact that it's 10 years old, it's given in "number of people" regardless of how they entered the country. The number that counts is the number of people who were given a travel visa, entered the US, and never returned. That IS the argument we are having, is it not? The argument is why Poles aren't given free travel rights to America and specifically why America refuses, no?

In that list, you have 10 countries. Of the 10, 8 are countries south of the USA, either part of the continent of South/Central America or an island, and nearly all those people probably crossed through Mexico somewhere illegally. We all know how many south/central americans cross over into America and stay illegally. These are not people who were issued travel visas and never returned.

So how can you compare that to Poland? The real table you need to look at is the number of people given travel visas from different countries, and how many of them come back before their visa expires. That's where the numbers are generated regarding "risk of not returning". In 2007, Poland from what I understand was over 20%, and in 2008, over 13%. They just lowered the acceptable value to enter the visa waiver program to 3%, which means Poland needs to change their travel habits, and change them fast. Wait until you start following the rules and satisfy the criteria in order to enter the visa waiver program before you start crying "Yankee prejudice!".

As for you Ironside, this is directed to you because I'm tired of reading your incoherent babble: someone could post just about anything in favor of your argument, regardless of how inaccurate or unrelated, and as long as it supports your cause, you'd hop up on the soap box and start shouting like a lunatic again. honestly me boy, stop, take a breath, and think about what you're looking at. I've met and taught 1,000 of these cookie-cutter America hating 20-something Poles. You're all the same. You hate America yet have never been there and know nothing about it. America hating in Poland is just the fashionable thing to do. Reminds me of the French haters in America. They hate the French, boycott French products, but if you were to approach them and ask why, they couldn't formulate a reasonable answer.

I am a firm believer that if you open the doors for Poland to travel freely to the USA, too many people leave to work in America, many of them will not return, and Poland's economy takes an already bigger hit due to skilled/educated people leaving to work elsewhere to find a better life. What happened in England/Ireland wouldn't compare to the exodus of Poles to America. Take away the economic crisis, or turn the clock back 8-10 years and open the USA border to Poland, and you literally have enough people leaving Poland to create a devastating blow to Poland's economy.

Believe it. Swallow your pride my Polish comrades, and believe it.

I don't have any hatred or animosity towards Poland at all, but what I'm flat out sick and tired of is Polish citizens talking about a country they simply don't have. Yes, you have Poland, but it's just that. It's Poland, and it's time you all come to realize just what that is and the realities of where you live. Enjoy the good's but don't try and mask or pretend or choose to ignore the bad's. A country that ceases to see and accept their bad's cannot improve itself, a common problem in my home country as well. Ultra-patriotism is a dangerous thing......I see it all too often and it forces you to completely lose touch with reality. Learn to call a spade a spade and then you can have rational conversation about topics such as "what poles hate and love about the U.S.".

I think you were looking at rejection rate...if you managed to get your hands on visa overstay numbers, we'd all be really happy to see them (that is what everyone has wanted to see the entire time).

Ron West - I think those census stats are pretty useless in this discussion. After all, how many Poles or other nationalities do you really think would put "illegal alien" in that box?

Many Poles overstay their visas but so do many other nationalities.

It's despicable that our government won't "favor" true allies such as Poland; a prime example without a doubt. It's really more about the racial or geographical political correctness than anything else.

In the mid 60s Ted Kennedy sponsored legislation which put an end to the white european immigrant "discrimination" - at least when viewed by non-Europeans that is.

Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965

Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 (Hart-Celler Act, INS, Act of 1965, Pub.L. 89-236) abolished the national-origin quotas that had been in place in the United States since the Immigration Act of 1924...

(my own comment -- the "old" quotas favored very heavily people from past large American immigrant groups: British, Irish, Germans, Poles, Swedes, etc., etc. Reasoning was - those groups brought prosperity and success to this country - let's keep a similar "national make-up" in the future by bringing in immigrants from similar regions. After 1965 no more... Political correctness became the mantra.)

...It was proposed by United States Representative Emanuel Celler of New York, co-sponsored by United States Senator Philip Hart of Michigan (known as "the Conscience of the Senate"), and heavily supported by United States Senator Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts - all Democrats.[1]

Immigration shift

By equalizing immigration policies, the act resulted in new immigration from non-European nations which changed the ethnic make-up of the United States.[3] Immigration doubled between 1965 and 1970, and doubled again between 1970 and 1990.[1]The most dramatic effect was to shift immigration from Europe to Asia.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965?wasRedirected=true

You have no idea what you are talking about.Numbers for visa waiver program are based on a NONIMMIGRANT VISA REFUSAL RATE.and it is only up to US consular services how many aplications they approve and how many they reject.you got it?Next time check the facts before you post BS.

the visa waiver program eligibility is based on refusal rate and visa overstay rate.

Here's just one group that benefited greatly from the 1965 imigration law change. I'm not trying to single them out but I found a specific reference to the Kennedy act here - that's why I'm bringing it up.

"...In the mid-1960s, a third wave of Arab immigration began which continues to the present. According to El-Badry, more than 75 percent of foreign-born Arab Americans identified in the 1990 census immigrated after 1964, while 44 percent immigrated between 1975 and 1980.This influx resulted in part from the passage of the Immigration Act of 1965 which abolished the quota system and its bias against non-European immigration.

everyculture.com/multi/A-Br/Arab-Americans.html


I agree, that's what I've read about it before.

I've read that four times and still don't get it, what is the country that the Polish citizens don't have but keep talking about? And what's wrong with talking about a country that people don't have? And what's wrong with having the one they have? I didn't sleep last night so I may be a little on the slow side at the moment, could you be more clear please?

absolutely nothing, which is essentially the point. getting your news from Polsat and TVN along with never even setting foot in America does not give someone license to pass judgment, which is what i routinely hear in my classrooms and on this forum, day in, day out. they make comparison after comparison about what they have here, the way people act, and that america is this, that and the other thing and how americans think and........and..........blehhh.......

I don't have to get my information about Poland from the internet or the Fox news channel. I've been living in Poland over 3 years. That's a hell of a lot more than what 99.9% of these America criticizing Poles can say when talking about America. I'm the first guy to bring up America's faults, there are plenty of things that bother me about my home country and it's people, but at least my opinion comes from seeing things with my own eyes, not through drinking the Polish news channel Kool-Aid along with listening to all the rest of the Anti-American propaganda in Poland.

there is NOTHING wrong with Poland. I live here, and I like living here, but I know what Poland is. I don't have to guess, therefore I can make statements about Poland, just the same as I can make statements about America, because I know the differences between the two countries. It's not a matter of "A is better than B so nah-nah-nah-nah-boo-boo," it's simply calling a spade a spade. You are what you are, nothing more, nothing less.

Go there, live the life, work, pay bills/taxes, speak to people in their native language and then make your comparisons. until then, let your grandmother do the complaining.

Are you talking about an unemployment rate that is lower than that of the US? Or are you talking about country that has a growing household income? Maybe you are talking about a country who's citizens are increasing their standard of living by making and selling goods instead of borrowing money to support their lifestyles.

Welcome to the US, the only country in history that has managed to go from the worlds largest creditor nation to the worlds largest debtor nation in the span of 20 years. The road to economic hell is paved with IOUs...

It was a massive gift at a time when America was struggling for support. Go away and count how many countries actually participated in the invasion of Iraq, then you'll see how desperate America was for support.


Ah, America, saving the world! I mean, America's economy wasn't massively boosted by the Iraq war and it was solely to protect the world, wasn't it? And the oil?


Poland gained nothing from fighting in Iraq, except combat experience. Terrorism? Last time I checked, Poland wasn't really top of a list to blow up.


No, I'm suggesting that the Polish leaders were useless and failed to agree a deal that they would participate in the war in exchange for the visa waiver scheme entry. Given that America was actively bribing smaller nations to declare their support, Poland was idiotic not to hold out for something that would actively improve the life of Polish people.


Iraq had nuclear capability? Only in the minds of Bush.


America gained quite a lot - strategically, Poland is in central Europe and allows America to get their troops quite a bit closer to Moscow. From a purely military point of view, America needed Poland. It used to be conventional wisdom that in the event of World War 3, Europe had probably just enough to hold out until the decision was made to start nuclear war - but now? Advantage NATO.

Funnily enough, where was America when the Falklands Islands were invaded? NATO has serious flaws, not least because many members don't believe that America will actually assist in a time of need.


Abysmal? The Polish military isn't too bad these days. The decision to buy F16's over Eurofighters was bizzare, but that was just another attempt to suck up to America for reasons that confuse me.

You have no idea what you're talking about. If polaks like you would return to your country when your visa expires there would be no visa requirements but if polaks like you continue to overstay your visas and stay here illegally then I hope there will never be a visa waiver for polaks like you. got it?

Next time check the facts before you post bs

Delphianedomine, I can't even begin to respond to your post, it's utterly ridiculous.

Maybe we'll try this:

Let's cut the fat and start asking really straightforward questions. Why don't you tell me where this extreme animosity comes from towards America, and while you're at it, fill us in on the source of your apparent blind love for Poland.

I would also like to know if you've ever been to America, where, and for how long.

Last time I challenged you directly like this Delph, you dodged it. Twice. No more cut and paste BS statistics, no more comparisons....let's get real now, me boy.

Either you will prove to me you have real reason to be like this or that your merely another blow-hard America hater.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't mind hearing some responses to the same questions from the other Anti-America horn blowers. Might as well, I expect another dodged bullet from Delph. Either way, this post puts this thread back on topic again.

"your" a teacher?

My, my...no wonder we all think Americans are stupid.


Usual line from someone who can't debate the point and instead has to try and change the topic to suit him.

Aside from the oil conspiracy, he doesn't seem like much of an America hater.


No no, you think that because you're ignorant and eat up every piece of satire coming out of the US as fact :)

Who is "we"?Do not make statements in someones else name and do not brand ppl basing on their nationality or place of born.If u knew few americans u would know that SOME are dumb and some are not.Some are good ppl and some are pos.nothing unusual.Just like anywhere else.

Hah, American satire is sheer genius at times, it's one of the best things about America. I've never understood why America has a bad reputation among Brits for comedy when...well...have they ever watched it?


Well, it's hard to deny that the reconstruction of Iraq has generated a fair few dollars for American companies. And a war is always good for the economy too, that much is certain. Was it morally right? Dubious. Was it good for America? Certainly. Nothing new there, after all, the UK did plenty of invasions and wars when it suited them ;)


I'd say your use of text speak brands you as "dumb".