My wife wants to return to Poland...but I want to stay in the US

theres a couple of other suggestions, I see you decided to pick up on this one
and make it negative.. in the end the child is the most important as seanus
pointed out, but its obvious he loves her and doesnt want to lose her and is
willing to send her back just to stop her sadness.

Well, you're just siding with the woman a little arbitrarily actually. Let me get this straight, you think it's a good idea to leave (right now) a good paying job , uproot the kid, move to Poland to start a brand new life... soley because SHE wants too?? You've introduced no other rationale than that.

Well that is just crap.. and extremly selfish.

just realism vs. romanticism.

Patrycja - for the sake of the discussion - what does it mean when people say "in the child's best interest?"

Often the child doesn't know him/herself - they're too young. It'd be pointless to ask a 6 year old who he/she wants to live with - they'll change their mind every 5 minutes. Besides, it'd be very cruel to make them "chose" a parent.

In several fairly recent cases it looked to me the "child's best interest" basically meant the woman's best interest. The Brazilian case (see the video above) was a prime example. She kidnapped the child (according to all treaties and the Hague children's convention") yet she claimed it was in her boy's best interest.

Tough issue and I hate to ruin the mood of this thread as I hope things will wrok out for Józek and his wife. However when we all say "the child is most important often we mean very different things, wouldn't you say?

Patrycja - meant to add this but missed the 15 minute PF edit dead-line.

Often when a woman sees the odds stack against her - child abuse allegations (by the man) mysteriously appear. My neighbor's brother went through hell when his then wife wanted a divorce and full custody. When he wouldn't give her what she wanted all of a sudden all kinds of stories appeared about his "inappropriate behavior" toward his daughter. I considered him a friend and must admit I too started believing her and pretty much stopped interacting with her ex (he used to live a few blocks away until I moved to a different state).

Fast forward a few years - his ex has now gotten involved with drugs (coke first then meth) and got busted for selling them. When she ended up in prison she finally opened up to her family and told her mom that she'd lied about the child abuse by her ex - she simply wanted the full custody.

So there she was - she got everything she wanted, including the full custody yet few years later ends up ruining everything she so eloquently lied for just to get involved with drugs...

Had she not gotten busted for drugs the entire world (relative term) would still think my friend was a child abuser. Frankly I'm not worthy to be called "his friend" as I wasn't there for him when he needed me the most but he has forgiven me.

It is a tough issue and I hate to ruin the mood of this thread as I hope and think that it’ll all work out for Józek and his wife.

However when we all say "the child is most important" often we mean very different things, wouldn't you say?

That's female 'logic'.
I call it 'me-ism'...... and it's sadly promoted by media and law.


Does the cry, "women and children first" ring a bell? Oddly, in the feminist demand for "equality", this archaic platitude still commands a philosophical stronghold (there is even a radical feminist bookstore in Chicago by that name).

Automatically defaulting a child to the mother based on a parent being female is discriminatory.


Any woman who does that cannot be capable of loving anyone.

I know, you believe that bullsh.t? She actually typed that out ..and submitted it. What has the American marriage come to.. It's like something out of Dickens.

Zimmy - I agree with you but wanted to point out that the whole sentence you quoted better explains how I feel.

"In several fairly recent cases it looked to me the "child's best interest" basically meant the woman's best interest. "

This is what I meant as I don't think all women are like that; I'm simply saying that's what I've seen in some recent cases, that we (as a society) need to be careful because they are out there.

WTF says you. read a little better, as logic has it another male who still dont get it!!

you even quoted it... I put out suggestions, I didnt tell him he had to go, there are
other options.


yes I did, you didnt read it carefully, I said take her out, help her get a job etc etc
but you only read part of the post.


zimmy, if you had one caring bone in your body, you wouldnt be divorced. I see
where your heading on this thread. leave the guy alone, dont corrupt his mind
with your pig ideas.


stop!! this is not a divorce. or that type of divorce. hes asking for help/advice
about her home sickness. for all we know she is a wonderful person just home sick
and he seems like a good man too, this is just a sad situation and yes, the child is
the most important.. no they might not be able to make the choice of who they want
to be with, but both parents have to get along and agree in order for this child to
understand the situation and if she did go back with the child, she would miss her
father, and vice versa..


thats not what I meant, you obviously didnt read either. or misunderstood my
post.. yeah thats it.


I hear your point, but you totally missed mine, and I am pretty disappointed that
so many did.. I know its not easy to uproot, move , and especially now, but thats
something they could talk about or maybe already have.


are you talking to me scrappy? cause I would really like to know WTF your so uppity about!!

....and you have accused me of generalizing; lol. Oh, we get it alright.


Doctors have found 59 (and counting) caring bones in my body. Oh, and a big heart.
As to the divorce, it is sadly interesting that you know nothing about my personal life yet feel so free to throw your manure against the wall. It only sticks on you.


Show people how it's done.

Patrycja,

Interesting you're saying I didn't read your post; maybe you didn't read mine? I gave plenty of suggestions on what I would do in his shoes (just a few posts earlier) - read it again, please.

I'm not looking into a male versus female battle - I sincerely hope his marriage will survive and gave him some suggestions on what I think he could do, others gave their advice which is great.

Then you used the term "child's best interest" which as he indicated was something that was very important to him as well.

Since you mentioned it I basically implied the "best interest" wording often means different things to different people. That's all.

So besides giving him my advice on what I would do if I was in his situation I also said that I hope and believe they'll be just fine.

Ah, misunderstood posts.....

Women frequently read or hear what they want to hear or read as opposed to what is actually spoken or written.
It makes them feel better and it's probably some kind of evolutionary survival mechanism related to self esteem. At any rate, it's always good to attempt to bring our 'equal' half back to the specific subject at hand. Asking them to focus is a good start.

The ladies here don't have to thank me for this advice; I know they appreciate it.

Funny. You are right about one thing. We won't thank you :) But honestly speaking I do not see this as an aspect of the female mind. How many men still think they can fit into a 32 inch waistband despite all other factors (stomach, mirror, scales) indicating otherwise. Maybe it is some survival mechanism related to self esteem :)

Anyhow, the "child's best interest" is always important but in this situation it doesn't really help them decide. First of all, let's remember that Jozek is still currently married and wants to be married and raise his child (if I remember correctly 2 years old). The child's best interest would be served probably if they stayed together in whichever country they can do the best in.

We often think of the child's best interest in divorce when we are comparing 2 countries with dramatically different standards of living (there was the case a few years ago with a little boy between Cuba and the US). Poland and the US are not so dramatically different, making the decision even more difficult.

Good post Chris. I agree with you and probably shouldn't have written the "so - what does best for the child really mean?". Oh well, sorry.

Off the subject - 32 inch waist? For a guy? I'm pretty trim but 32 sounds pretty skinny for a guy doesn't it? ...or am I a fatso after all??? LOL

In case it's not just the Chicago Poles that are getting her down, you might have to step up your game, Jozek. In order to start out at equal footing again, you might have to "do" two years is her country of choice. Wouldn't that be fair? And honestly, if you didn't have a bit of that "I can make it anywhere" insanity, you would have married an american.

No, that's not fair. That's the kind of thing that should be decided beforehand, and not on an emotional whim, don't you think? She sounds a bit unstable, not sure of what she wants. Who knows how she'll swing once in Poland? It'd be a shame for this guy to move over, lose his daughter, and then move back with nothing except the experience.

granted, first he's got to make sure that she's not just trying to get away from him. After that, it really does not matter who's right and who's wrong - but who's going to be less miserable - her in Chicago or him in Poland.

How can anyone think for a second that any advice can be helpful.
Nobody knows OP personally, or anything about him his wife nor their circumstances for that matter.
If he wanted genuine advice he should turn to friends family or somebody who know first thing about him.
All this, assuming he is for real!

key word is horoscope :)

Well I would let your wife to come to Poland. When she will see how terrible weather there is, when she will experience horrible customer service and rudeness of people, unbelievable traffic and hard life (I am Polish girl who has American boyfriend living with me here and he was sufering tremenously) maybe she will appreciate amazing reality in your beautiful country!

Lot of people turn to internet with their problems just so they won't feel all alone. Most of the time it's good to hear a story from someone who was in similar situations, what they did and how did it turn out. Sometimes it's good to hear a wide range of responses.. Might save one from getting totally blindsided, or one may realize that their situation might not be that tragic.

What I missed about Poland the most during my first 2 years in US was people - social life, being able to discuss my experiences, bounce ideas, just share everyday struggle... that was missing in my new life. Sometimes family and friends are more important than creature comforts..

good post, kinda what I was hinting at, either way someone has to sacrafice
what they long for to keep their home life stable.

Im not saying poland would or wouldnt be the right choice, but he should talk
more to her, find out maybe theres other things on her mind, not just poland.


would you like some cheese with that berry berry sad whine.


some very good food for thought. you are so right, his friends know him and her
both, either way, he is reaching out, obviously my post was misunderstood
next time I will just private post to that person when its such a personal issue
because this really did get way our of hand and I hope this man and his wife
do find resolve.

Thank you :)

and good post Chris, its nice to see/get feedback like this. rather then get sarcastic
and just ask me.

Nice post f stop.


well zimmy ditto. because you keep placing all women in this:


make you a deal, I will stop picking your personal life if you stop picking at women
in general and knock off this mangina attitude just be yourself for a change and
stop with the sarcasim so we can all have some nice conversations/attitudes for a
change cause this mentality only causes confliction and isnt healthy.

I think everyone has something to offer the Polish forums.. either way someone wins.
and people might start actually enjoying the forum again..

Thanks for the great response Patrycja. Nice way of ripping me a new one by taking out a tiny section of what all of my replies suggested to Józek.

Well, at least your views are truly unbiased here... ("sarcasm smiley" if I had one)

Point taken, sorry I forgot to post to your post ( oopsey daisy)

I hear what your saying, long term the child will be affected.

where is my daddy mommy?? oh he lives in the United states,
he couldnt come live with us. mommy was homesick.

I know I couldnt imagine trying to explain this to my child let alone why
so many children in poland have daddys who live with them and hers lives
so far away. it might not happen for a few years, but eventually it will.

marriage is supposed to be a sacred thing. she knows this, unless her intentions
were other wise.
Ironside pretty much summed it up, the only people who know them best are
their friends and family. hers living in poland ,maybe she should ask them as well
as he ask his friends.

sorry I forgot to include you in my post before.. that was so bad of me
* roll eyes* lol

Patrycja - no problem. Thanks for the reply. Looks like we basically agree, my point was, fix the marriage first, she's unhappy for a reason. Find out what it is and see if there's a way to compromise. The comment I made about the child is that the little girl has a mommy and a daddy and it should always stay that way.

Ok, thanks again for the reply.

I'm out of here, time for some jack & coke and maybe a mai tai later tonite - cheers, skål, na zdrowie, okole maluna or kanpai, whatever your flavor happens to be...

LOL

Given that I dig at the pompous the whole time, dislike Nazis and can only really go to moderate feminism, what's your point? Are you a proud chauvinist or what?

Paint it as you wish; key decisions are usually best made by the unemotional.

This thread is case in point.

Well, I can't disagree with that. Rational tests and not whimsical behaviour is what the courts are interested in. To me, she sounds just like other Polish women I've seen. Have a kid (getting what they wanted), leave the man and elope. She keeps PIFL lawyers in a job anyway. Eh, marriage vows!!

Well, we aren't at the kid stage just yet. 2 years down the line is likely. The OP's wife came to America, got married and had a kid. Yes, we can all be afforded a change of heart but stare decisis applies to marriage. Whisking the kid off just looks bad.

maybe if your the robot from lost in space..lol


yes it does, but it sounds like hes pretty torn up, maybe see counselor
someone on a professional level who might be able to offer up some suggestions
or ideas to help both?


I know you were not talking about me, because I am the main support of my
home right now and without this my family would be not have food, roof over
their head, so my rights to work and make a living would not be even a thought
if those before me didnt fight to get women in the workforce.. and my wages would
be shyt.

there are many men out there who step up to the plate, if this is such the case
with you , then you shouldnt be treating others less then how you want to be treated
and with the same respect.. it goes both ways.

Well, financial provision upon divorce tends to favour them. It's a sad state of affairs when it comes to that, it's just grabbing.

Mapping out the future of the kid is so important and a whimsical plea to return with the kid just doesn't wash.

True, but additionally, when good men fight for custody against not so good women, the courts still continue to give child custody to the women. That explains why men don't initiate divorce because they have so much more to lose. There must be more fairness in this area.

Amazing that feminists don't want more equally in this area isn't it?

Let's take another scenario; a man is married to an American career woman for a couple of years; he tells her that he wants to go back to his country, and he will take their child with him. Is there any doubt that some here would give the concerned woman different advice than given the man?

True enough. The problem is that the father won't even get meaningful access in the case above. How can you give custody to the person who entered into marriage with a view to creating a family with her husband and then U-turns?