Canada Increasingly a Gateway for Undocumented Polish Immigrants Entering the U.S.

You were the one not too long ago saying that people didn't have that problem in your area when I pointed out how much money people actually have working in Oklahoma. There is quite a bit of conspicuous consumption that goes on in the US. People go in to debt in order to consume. It's crazy. We need a change in mentality in the US. Saving and investment based as opposed to consumption based.

Yes.. it is crazy to a degree. However, that mentality ushered in the strongest economic engine the world has ever known; largest most prosperous middle class the world has ever known.. and ultimately brought prices down. I don't conspiculously consume anymore but I don't mind if other well off Americans do.. This is how jobs are created.

I tend to disagree with you on that. It's gotten to the point where things like debt don't matter. It was a source of pride 30 years ago not to have to rely on someone else to pay for your consumption. Credit is evil and has killed the middle class in the US. Credit is good for business, absolutely terrible for consumers.

of course but my area is not the whole country

Credit and conspicuous consumption are not mutually exclusive. Sure, eradicate most of the debt but going back to some 18th century life of subsistance is fairly idiotic if you want to maintain what we have and push it forward. We would fall hopelessly behind China / India. Our consumption rates lower prices on good.. thus bringing in peope from other countries to shop here. You don't think that's an advantage?

Actually, consumer debt is on the wane since all the b/s really came about.

Convex is right GH, if there are no jobs in your area then move. That's what capitalism is all about. Some people in Detroit area collected unemployment for years and years while there were jobs available in the very same industry but in other states. I understand the concept of living near your family but sometimes moving makes most sense.

Yeah, you've got a serious point. Hand outs are a huge reason Europe is in the sh.tty mess if finds itself in right now.

No they're not, but there is a very obvious relationship.


Credit is NOT needed to survive, if so, that's a sign of a hopelessly broken economy. You borrow money at interest in order to invest for a greater return, not for satisfaction through consumption.


Are we consuming our own products? Who is benefiting from cheap Chinese goods which Americans have to borrow money from foreign entities (Japan and China) to to finance?


On the wane, but still atrocious. I really wish more Americans would invest in their country instead of in their "bling"...

Import people, logistics, retail, state governments , municipalites all benefit from Asian goods coming in. However, I agree we should start demanding American made goods.. or at the very least N. American goods, given the reciprocity between Canada and Mexico. At least they buy our stuff where the Asian just puts up tariffs and gives the middle finger to us.

I'm starting to notice nascent movements of "Buy American".. I'm very proud to say. I think this will continue.


No, you don't but it's advantageous in case of emergencies. It's often justified in funding education.. home investments, etc. It shouldn't be relied on though.


The point is that it's changing.. Mindsets aren't changed over night. Incrementally things have gotten better. At least the acceptance has come in that we have a problem.

Those are all markups to the original cost of production, which is well over 50% of the end cost to the consumer...which quite a few consumers need to borrow in order to afford.


It would be nice to see, but I think the majority of Americans aren't willing to give up quality of life (through cheap goods) for the benefit of others. Unfortunately. People, in general, think in personal terms, not broad terms.


In emergencies, sure. Emergencies. That's it. Buying a house, fair enough, you pay half of it in cash, the rest on payments, if you're credit worthy. Education, absolutely not. That is one the biggest problems in the US higher education system. So much credit has been made available that the costs are no longer affordable to people that save up. The concept of a college fund is laughable now.


Hopefully it will continue to change after credit becomes more fluid again...

That is many moons away.. I can assure you. I don't think the US gets back to any sense of 'normalcy' for another 4 - 5 years. Lots of pain to come: Ultimately, it will be for the best.

Absolutely. Self reliance would be a good thing to get back to.

The Asian thing is a strange problem, with many parameters. If can we can really establish markets there it would be hugely advantageous for us. Apparently the Chinese love those huge dippy GM SUV's, which have a nice markup typically. They like a lot of American stuff. KFC is another example.. lots of chicken farms in the South, etc.

Once we've paid off a lot of the Asian debt (it's not insurmontable by any means) , we more or less give them an ultimatum to lower tariffs on our stuff or we'll do the same to them. Once they're paid off they won't have much sway on us. Trade wise they've gotten away with murder, but if we get a REAL market for our goods it could be a sweet next 40 - 50 years.

It is but it shouldn't be. We shouldn't buy anything from them if they don't buy from us. I've been saying it many times on PF, we need a strong president and our problems will be solved much earlier than what's expected.

i know only one family who doesn't buy anything made in China.... i guess they don't buy much....

Quit importing from China would be way more successful than not buying Chinese products that already entered the US. This is what I meant by not buying anything from them if they don't buy from us.

Convex, we (the USA) has a easy money policy because that's all we have. It was a political decision to outsource our manufacturing to China, our service jobs to India and to allow illegal immigration to lower wages because that's where the profits are.

Without easy money we would be a third world country. People shouldn't take minimum wage jobs, business can afford to pay more, a lot more. Remember Henry Ford raised labor rates three fold so that his workers could buy his cars.

Support that with some numbers please... I hope that you are aware that 1996 was fourteen years ago? Simple linear extrapolation would suggest that if between 1988 and 1996 yearly medium rate of decline was 25000/8 = 3125, then (2010-1996)*3125=43750

so according to this now would be around 70000-43750=26250 illegal Poles in US.
Which is completely immaterial anyway because illegals in US are not a base for 9,8% refusal rate but lucky guess of US clerk...


Heh, that is the problem with you guys, you don't like numbers from YOUR own Homeland Security department, and wishes more and more. If you want more then find it yourself. After all it is you who are supporting your thesis based only on prejudices, ancient history and some guy who crossed illegaly USA-Canadian border. Well at least you are in line with Hegel:

"facts are against you,"
"So much the worse for the facts" ;-)

And.. I would restate the facts because I really like them ;-) :

jwojcie wrote:


i have no numbers at all, i think my post suggested that. i was just making logical deductions from your numbers.

jwojcie wrote:


you know as much as I do that your linear extrapolation is meaningless.

jwojcie wrote:


of course it's not a perfect system, but some sort of filtering method needs to be in place and the current one although not perfect is successful many times. for those that don't get through but were legitimately going to visit the USA and come right back, sure it sucks for them, but america saves more tax money keeping obvious future illegals out than they do stopping a few "legit" poles every year from spending a few bucks in the USA during their short visit.

It's easy to say it for you guys, both still very young (probably not married yet either), no family ties in the US (you live here but your relatives are in Europe and convex lives in Poland), you guys can move around easy but there are much older people in the US who came in this situation, with families (kids at school etc), who always lived and worked in the same area. They most likely have a house that still needs to be paid off etc.

Our government needs to cut off illegal immigration and help our own people instead to concentrate on helping everyone else.


what are you talking about? (lol) I just told you that you can't google it out but it doesn't mean that Homeland Security doesn't know them. It's really unimportant if you know them as long as they do.


"some guy" lol

If you've had your entire life to work in the land of milk and honey, and you lose your job, can't find another one, and don't have a fat nest egg to sit on, you're a failure. Surely after 20-30 years of work experience if a Mexican that can hardly speak English can take your job, you are a complete and utter failure, those people shouldn't be breeding either.

I have no words for this comment so i'll just write this instead.

now you're talking like a typical, full of hatred toward Americans, PF member.
I doubt you ever lived here convex because you seem not have any freaking idea about the situation here.
I'm glad that my family is in a different situation but there quite a few American families struggling nowadays and someone like you, who doesn't even live here, opens his big arrogant mouth and calls them a FAILURE.

FU*k YOU CONVEX !!!

Suspend me, I don't give a damn if an obvious TRAITOR like you will do it or not.

dude where you at? having fun?

Nope, just don't like worthless lazy people, regardless of if they're Americans or some other nationality. Those people can starve to death for all I care, hopefully the idiots didn't decide to breed. And yes, the situation is the same everywhere. Those people that don't better themselves get eaten up. In fact, I've gone back and forth with WB on this over hundreds of posts. When I pointed out that quite a few people in Oklahoma are working hard on minimum wage jobs, you countered that in your area people don't have fiscal problems, and attempted to show that as a one off. Has the poverty bug spread? Are illegals stealing all the good white collar jobs? I will reiterate that point. If someone that walked through the desert for 5 days, is filthy from head to toe, has a 4th grade education, can't speak a lick of English, and is in the country illegally, if that person steals your job, you have failed in the game of life.


Still in Wroclaw, heading out tomorrow morning on the 530 flight to Warsaw, then on home to see the family. Rams is coming up for a couple of weeks at the start of January. I'll bring over some goodies from the states and we can do the -20 bbq/leaving party :)

IMO Convex is one of very few sensible foraigners on this forum.It more looks like you Guess are a typical chauvinistic American.

why, because he's saying what you like to hear? Yep, I am definitely a chauvinistic American and that's why I took up fro Poles so many times on PF. Yes, sometimes I'm criticizing Poles too when I feel like you guys deserve it. I don't see you talking crap about your countrymen, grubas so how come you don't understand someone who defends his own people too.

I DO talk a lot of crap about Poland and my countrymen politicians.And I DO consider many of my countrymen to be a low life scumbags,but I don't think it has anything to do with their nationality.


No he doesn't.


You are and that is OK with me.(Not that I like this kind of people though).

Don't forget about me! I'll bring...erm....the toughness?

Guesswho, convex talks the way many Americans think but few vote that way. It's the libertarian ideology and often I too agree with their reasoning. Convex simply used a more colorful or mor direct way of describing those feelings.

I do understand your position and you're right, it's easier for me as I have no wife or children (not by choice though). Yet our society is slowly turning into the European model of constant government involvement in peoples' lives. We have lazya@$ bums who've lived on welfare for decades, we have those who procreate simply to keep getting more checks from the government. Of course, people with that mindset are a minority but a sizable minority which is draining our coffers. A few months ago I was downtown Anchorage, AK getting a cop of coffee when I saw this bum who asked me for money. I said I'd buy him a sandwich and a coffee instead if he wanted. Really?, he said. Yeah, let's go inside and you order what you want, I replied and so we did. He took his meal into a paper bag, thanked me and as he was walking out I told him "hey you do know they're hiring, right?" as I pointed at the flyer on the door which in large letters said "HIRING". "I know," he replied, "I don't wanna work in a coffee shop though," and he exited the store. This mentality is becoming more and more prevalent, some people just won't work no matter what. I guess in a way I became his enabler.

It's tough to move but if there are jobs elsewhere than you ( and your family) should move. Ideally move first to make sure the job is stable and that you like it there and then bring your family. Tough but necessary.