And you wonder why there is Anti-Polish feeling in the UK

I'm not going to search for that article, Harry, I don't even remember in which newspaper it was (but it wasn't Polish newspaper).

And I remember the comments under that article by Irish people, lamenting about young Irish people drinking too much on holidays and being reckless.
I feel sorry fot the young man and his family, but that's what probably happened. His friends admitted that they were drinking and they didn't even realise he departed somewhere. They went back to the hotel without his friend so I'm guessing they were really drunk. He must've been pretty drunk too, it was dark probably and he stumbled into the river. If he was sober he would be able to get out of the river.

I've added some logic to what I've read in various articles and that's my conclusion.
Of course those articles I gave links to are very nice, talking about what a wonderful lad he was, etc. A young man has died, family is in mourning and there was no point to remind about not so flattering circumstances. It's understandable.


How do you know that?
Of course, I don't know that either, I don't know if there were any toxicology tests done, but I suspect there were and even without them we know he was drinking. It's a logical conclusion, I would make the same conclusion about a Pole drinking with his friends in an Irish pub, strolling away somewhere, not knowing the place and falling into the river while drunk. $hit happens. And $hit is more likely to happen to drunk people. What's new?

What do you think happened?

From what the autopsy said. And from what the police said off the record.


Again, there you go, making a claim you have no evidence for.

And what did it say?


And what the police said?


Harry, you are being silly now :D I'm not British lol
The Irish are considered our soulmates here, didn't you know lol
Of course I have no evidence and I'm repeating what I've read in an (non-Polish) newspaper. And yeah, that's what I suspect happened, it seems the only logical conclusion really, judging by what I've read. I have no anti-Irish sentiments xD Quite the opposite.

As I already wrote, and you probably missed it on purpose: " I would make the same conclusion about a Pole drinking with his friends in an Irish pub, strolling away somewhere, not knowing the place and falling into the river while drunk." And I would make the same conclusion about a British fan and Croatian fan and German fan, etc. etc.

What's your problem, Harry?
Maybe I should have worded it in another way? That he "most likely was so drunk he drowned in a river"? Is that it?

You are dismissing a programme you haven't actually seen as 'propaganda'. Presumably on the basis that it said something bad about Poland, or rather that someone informed you that it said something bad about Poland.


Reading comprehension not your strong point, I take it.


No, but I am British, I lived there for thirty years, go there about twice a year, and so on. And this gives me a greater insight into what people think and feel there than someone who gets their opinions from the dross that is posted on Polish Forums, I would imagine.

Would you be so kind and share your insight into...?

So a bloke in a bar told you.....


There was no evidence of foul play in this young mans death despite crude insinuations...


I saw it and it was crude propaganda though not quite in the same category as the Mail and its attack on a Jewish refugee of Polish extraction who happened to volunteer to fight fascism but it was propaganda none the less.

My insight into anti-Polish feeling?

I don't really have the time to write any kind of in-depth analysis.

However, given the massive immigration over the previous ten years from Poland, the biggest surprise is that it is not greater than it currently is.

I wonder how Poland would cope with a similar influx?


I saw it and I'd say it was pretty accurate.

If you regard it as 'propaganda', then I'd suggest you don't fully understand the meaning of this word.

What 'attack' in the Mail would you be referring to here?

I imagine it was the DM attack on Ralph Miliband to which Barney refers?

The program was a hatchet job it was unbalanced and was indeed sensationalist propaganda.


It was indeed

The accusation that Polish people are overly sensitive can be made equally about any other nationality including the British.

In your opinion. Yet you make no attempt whatsoever to back up your claim with evidence.

Furthermore, you don't appear to understand the meaning of the word, 'propaganda'.

Exactly the same here.

But then we're speaking as people who live in Poland, have lived in Poland for many years and follow Polish football (well, I personally have the misfortunate of having Polonia Warszawa as my local team but there is the occasional outbreak of football in amongst the comedy of errors that is Polonia Warszawa). Barney lives in Ireland, has never lived in Poland and apparently knows bugger all about Polish football (and Polish football fans).


Some Polish are indeed over sensitive. Some Brits are too. However, Poles are rather more likely to be over sensitive. One example: just look at the number of 'baddies' in Hollywood films who are British, but rarely (if ever) does one hear Brits complain about that; however, in the film Enigma the baddie is a Pole and there's endless whining about that.

I'd go as far as to say I'm pretty well qualified to speak about this.

I have a press pass for my local team, and go to every match. I've even taken photos of the 'action' away from the stadium.

Barney objects to the presence of far-right thugs interrupting university lectures, yet not their presence at just about every professional football match that takes place in Poland.

It isn't pleasant, and any non-white football fan wishing to attend matches in Poland should be aware of these groups, their attitude and behaviour, for their own safety.

It's a pity the Mexican sailors in Gdynia never watched the programme, as it might have saved them from an extremely unpleasant experience.

The vast majority of Poles never grew up in a multi-cultural environment, and many are wholly unfamiliar with perspectives of the world that are not Polish. Therefore, some are shocked and hurt to discover that not every history book in the world portrays them as the 'noble victims' of the misdeeds of others, as they had been told at school. Given the opening of borders after communism, and the free movement of peoples within the EU, this will hopefully change.

I'll ask again at exactly what distance from ones home does ones opinion become worthless? As a supplementary I will ask for your credentials as a clairvoyant.

I watched the programme I found it to be sensationalist and biased and indeed a piece of propaganda.


And at this point I must ask for fully referenced sources not some feeling or bias or even a story told in a pub but real sources for your idea.

Thank you Adam.

Either the programme accurately reflected fans' behaviour, or it did not. People who are familiar with the behaviour of Polish football fans can provide an informed opinion on this matter. Those who have never been to match in Poland, can't.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it isn't an informed one.

At exactly which point did I suggest there was not a problem?

I simply said that the BBC broadcast a sensationalist programme that was effectively a piece of propaganda. The reaction of posters here is very similar to the reaction they suggest is more likely to be found among Polish people


The Programme was about much more than that and if you didnt see that its a good job you are not a journalist.

It wasn't sensationalist, it was accurate, as people who have actually lived in Poland and have actually been to a game or two of football here will know; although given that you haven't, it's no surprise that you default to your 'blame the Brits' stance.

I wasn't a piece of 'propaganda'. It wasn't 'promoting or disseminating any particular ideology'. You may not have agreed with the programme, but the word you have used to describe it was entirely inaccurate.

The programme suggested that it was unsafe for people from ethnic minorities to attend football matches in Poland and Ukraine. It is extremely hard to see how this opinion was unfair. Perhaps you could tell us the reason you believe this to be the case.

Did you see the footage of Mexicans being beaten by football hooligans in Gdynia in August?

Where did I do that?


I believe it was.

The English FA would love to have an other tournament soon, as the chances of it being a world cup are zero the Euros is their best opportunity.

The programme proved to be wrong as events showed.

And how would this programme have helped them to achieve this?

The tournament had already been awarded to Poland/Ukraine. There was little or no possiblity of UEFA changing their decision at that stage.

That's a conspiracy theory on a really grand scale.

You still have yet to explain what was wrong with the programme, (which was about the influence of the far right in football stadiums in Poland and the Ukraine).

If it gave a false view, then:

(a) do you deny there is a physical threat to football supporters from ethnic minorities attending football tournaments in Poland and the Ukraine from far right thugs?

and

(b) do you deny that that the far right has significant influence on football supporters associations in Poland?

Points (a) and (b) are what the documentary informed its viewers of, and both points are entirely correct.

If you don't believe either point to be correct, could you please tell us why.

Where you express your utterly groundless and entirely ignorant opinions about a program by the British Broadcasting Corporation.


You are entirely wrong: as anybody who lives in Poland and has been to game or two of football can tell you.


Other than the racist chanting in Krakow, and the racist attacks on fans in Warsaw, and pretty much all of the ethnic minority fans I met who'd been out in Ukraine having been warned by locals to keep an eye out of white power skinhead scum; funny how you somehow forget all of those things.

I simply said that the BBC broadcast a sensationalist programme that was effectively a piece of propaganda.


But was it not a propagation of information or ideas by an interested party, esp. in a tendentious way in order to encourage or instil a particular attitude or response?

Yes it was.


By portraying Britain in general and England specifically as a good place to have a tournament unlike places further east. It wasn't about having the last one moved I never suggested that, its laying the ground work for future applications. Of course that is just a suggestion


The program asked people to stay away suggesting families would not be safe in either country. It was about much more than the actual matches.

If you point a camera at a bunch of hooligans you will get the footage you want. Sol Campbell is now saying that Britain is racist

Harry you need to either chill or start rabidly typing IRA stuff cos you are making no sense.

No.

So the program was devoid of meaning?

Again, conspiracy theory on a grand scale.

Are you seriously suggesting the United Kingdom, which invented football, and has the world's richest professional league, really needs to bash countries such as Poland and Ukraine in order to host a football tournament?

If you honestly believe that, then it appears Harry has got your number.


It suggested ethnic minorities should stay away. Entirely correctly. Would you disagree with that assessment?


In your imagination. Panorama identified a real problem. Are you seriously denying that racism and the far right are not a serious issue in football stadiums in Poland and Ukraine?

Yes even though they (UK teams) have four votes they do need to build backing and there is a lot of politicking involved.

Try using the line we invented football as your hook to secure a tournament and see how far you get.

I wouldn't for a second suggest that the outraged reaction of some British posters here was typical of British people as a whole however with Polish people the reverse is true. A tournament is not the same as a local Polish Derby for example and so I don't agree that so called "Ethnic minorities" should avoid either Poland or Ukraine they just have to be extra cautious.

Now that Sol Campbell has been recognised as an unimpeachable source his insistence that Britain is a Racist place is correct is it?

Your opinion here is frankly ridiculous, Barney. It is not being absurdly patriotic to suggest that England has a lot of prestige in the football world, and therefore has little need to organise a 'dirty tricks' campaign merely for the right to organise a football tournament.

As Poland/Ukraine had just staged a tournament, they would not be in contention again for some years.

Furthermore, the BBC is a genuinely independent organisation.

One point you seriously need to address, is that nothing in the Panorama programme was inaccurate.

I thought you were against racism, the far right and so on. So, a major broadcaster highlights this problem and you are opposed to this ?!?!

On what grounds? That the broadcaster happens to be 'British'? So, Harry has summarised you correctly, then?


Why should ethnic minority people have to be 'extra cautious'?


He's as entitled to his opinion as much as the next man. I wouldn't be angry with any broadcaster for reporting his remarks, or state they were disseminating 'propaganda' for doing so. I'm not going to organise any anti-Sol Campbell demonstrations because of what he said.

It's a problem easily apparent to anybody who has lived in Poland and has been to a game or two.


Indeed: the policing for a local derby is a lot different to a Poland vs Russia match, which is why those Russian fans got a kicking after the match in Warsaw.


Those Russian fans who got a kicking in Warsaw might disagree with you; but then what would they know? They only came to Poland and went to a match, something which you've done far more times, right?


Yes, clearly they couldn't just say "We've got all the stadia in place, we've got all the hotels, all the airports, all the transport infrastructure and we've got experience in these events, we know how to make sponsors happy, oh and we have a friendly tax regime." Clearly making statements like that would never work. What they needed to do was to bash the nations which were just about to host the event.


Me neither, wherever he may be.

But was it not a propagation of information or ideas by an interested party, esp. in a tendentious way in order to encourage or instil a particular attitude or response?


Either your No means that the BBC programme is not a piece of propaganda
or Barney's Yes means that it is. You both at least agree to measure the BBC programme by the same standard.

Is then a way to make an objective judgment?

Here is a succinct and user-friendly definition of the word 'propaganda':

prop·a·gan·da
/ˌpräpəˈgandə/
Noun

Information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
The dissemination of such information as a political strategy.

It's up to Barney to demonstrate that:

the programme was biased or misleading
that it was publicising a particular cause or point of view
that this information was being disseminated as a political strategy

He's pretty far from doing so.