Just visited Poland - here is my random rant

Obviously I don't know my JKSA from my JKB.

Her opinion is correct. This is why Jefferson and Jackson hated banks and bankers, they use the money supply and interest rates to instigate recessions because there is a moral hazard with the middle class and poor having access to money. Of course there is never a moral hazard when it involves the wealthy and very wealthy, for some reason that never applies to that group. Recessions and depressions devastate the poor and middle class, and only benefits the very wealthy.

That is true in case of recessions indeed... the problem is that current mess is not merely a recession, it is a strategic collapse of the western world.

You can pretty much take the best out of bad situations for everything.

Nor could any society. And for the record, I'm confident everyone on this thread was well aware of that before you chose to spread your wisdom.


She? I've never understood the reasoning to personifying nations/societies, with all their complexity, down to one person. But alas, what can I do except encourage people away from it?

Okay digression aside, another thing most, if not all of us already know is that, with a monetary system we're constrained or supported by it, depending on your perspective.

As I've understood it, what a society needs to function well economically is a healthy flow of financial transactions along with competent governance and a fair legal system.

I believe that as long as the money supply, like a blood supply, circulates then the monetary system is operating at top efficiency.
If you choose to disagree with that then we can agree to disagree.


Good question imo, maybe there is a recession here. But if there isn't, would you really like to see unemployment get to levels that would indicate a recession? How would that be beneficial?

The pampered, pragmatic and persnickety lot need grounding? Why? How? To what ends?
I see you have links but as Paulina pointed out, comparing the U.S. and Polish societies in this regard seems like faulty reasoning.


So, why not take that up with JKSA or JKB or whoever wrote it (if you have then my apologies)?


What are you asking?


Now that is the truth! Nowhere is the deficiency in leadership here more evident than with the Polish government.

According to statistics the unemployment rate in Poland is below the European average:

statista.com/statistics/160142/unemployment-in-eu-countries/

I believe the salaries in Poland should be kept much lower than western Europe we need to look no further than the PIIGS to what the future holds if the same path is followed, there should also be a law stating all graduates availing of free university fees, work in Poland for a set number of years before seeking work abroad.


Basic 101.


!

I can't access that link bu just as it happens I had a look this morning and the rate of unemployment in Poland was above the E.U. average. at 13.7%-14%.

What does your link say?

As of April 2013

Euro area 12.2%
EU 11%
Poland 10.8%

Try going to this link statista.com and you can search unemployment figures.

No idea what PIIGS is but if you think salaries should be lower in Poland compared to western Europe do you also think prices of utilities and food and fuel should remain comparably lower?

And yeah it does not help that many graduates leave and work elsewhere but is making it illegal really the answer? I myself think incentives would do more than penalties. But that takes us back to the inadequate approach to leadership and management that exists throughout the Polish government.


Okay, so we seem to agree on the basics, I'm trying to understand how you envision a recession to do anything but drive even more capable people out of the country...not to mention the increase in crime that will accompany it.

Possibly the worst customer service (other than airlines) I've ever experienced is in (and around) Krakow! I'm amazed some businesses actually manage to stay open they way they treat customers!!!

Hungary has either brought in such a law or is planning to. I believe Belarus has a system where after university, you have to go and work for the State in some capacity before getting to go alone, too.

This is absolutely fair.

I'd rather be in favour of a system that requires graduates to work x years by y date - or they have to pay a considerable tax bill. Going abroad wouldn't give you immunity, as the tax bill would always be waiting for you.

That actually sounds quite fair, but it should be x years or x zloty...if someone ends up being an Investment banker in Warsaw and pays it off in year 1 then they shouldn't be forced to stay for x more years if they're already paid their tax bill in effect!

That may well be the best idea I've ever read on PF. Can anyone see any holes in that idea?

Where would these jobs you speak of come from then?

Foreigners studying for free in Poland...

Many, unfortunately. There is a culture in Poland of women getting married/pregnant earlier, and often staying at home for many years as a result. It's a scourge with educated ones who often suddenly forget their ambitions to become a full time mummy - and of course, Poland being what it is, no-one is really willing to employ such a woman if she's shown such a lack of interest in actually working if they can get new graduates who are willing to work too.

Are you sure I spoke of "these" jobs?


How?


How's that a problem in the sense that it would undermine the idea you two proposed?


Okay I can see how that doesn't contribute economically in the short run but still if some people decide family life and their children are more important than making money then how does that undermine the basic premise of your idea.

Personally I think incentives to work in Poland would be better than penalties for working abroad but I think that idea you two came up with is decent.

The problem is that these people also represent a powerful lobby - not only do they shout and scream online at any measures that undermine their "right to be a mummy", but they also are able to influence their partners who enjoy having a slave at home. If they were to be forced into paying the true economic cost of their courses - they may very well howl and scream until the measures are overturned for "mummies".


The problem is that the economy is still helped by those who work abroad - someone who obtained a poor, poor degree who goes to work abroad (and who sends some cash to their village family) is far more use abroad than in Poland right now.

I think probably the only way to counter it is to require people to pay a minimum level of tax for x years if they've received a free university education - set the tax level at the same amount as a worker on minimum wage and require it to be paid regardless of where they reside.

Full-time education at Polish state Higher Education Institutions is free for Polish citizens. It is also free for foreigners who commence studies in Poland at state HEIs on terms applicable to Polish citizen.

Tuition Free Education in Poland
In Poland, full-time day studies at state (public) universities/colleges are free of charge to Polish citizens. Foreigners studying in Poland on the same conditions as applicable to Polish citizens have the right to free tuition (free-of-charge) studies at public universities/colleges. Other foreigners must pay tuition fees.

Foreigners qualified for free tuition schooling must fall under these categories:
Category A: covers those students receiving a Polish government scholarship. Such students are exempted from the payment of tuition fees.
Category B: This category covers those students not receiving a scholarship, but nevertheless exempted from the payment of tuition fees; provided that such students meet one of the following requirements:

obtained a permit for residence in Poland;
have been granted refugee status by the Republic of Poland;
have been granted temporary protection in the Republic of Poland;
are migrating employees, citizens of a EU Member State or of an EFTA State being a member of the European Economic Area Treaty, employed formerly or currently in Poland; this right extends also to members of their families, if resident on the territory of the Republic of Poland;

are citizens of an EU Member State or an EFTA country or members of their families, provided that they have funds necessary to cover the costs of living during studies; it should be noted that such persons (members of their families) are not entitled to maintenance grant.

Foreign students enrolling under these categories will be required to provide proof of their proficiency in Polish. Students who cannot prove their knowledge of Polish in sufficient for higher education study will be required to attend a one-year free introductory course in Polish.

That's not such a problem where EU citizens are concerned - they can just be chased for the tax owed if they don't pay.

I cannot make sense of what you're saying. What measures would undermine whose right to be a mother to their children?


I find that a very warped perspective, if you want to take it to the feminist thread then we can have at it there. (but not tonight, I got a 7am start tomorrow).

Raising children is work, isn't it?
Are you suggesting women should "pay back" their debt (so to speak) financially before having children?
Raising people who contribute into society is a long-term contribution isn't it? What do you think the economic cost is of not having or raising children?


I agree with you there and that is essential to my point -there is a lack of opportunity here compared to the west.


I can't argue with that.

It's a mentality that I struggle to understand myself. What you'll find in Poland is that any time any measures are proposed to make life easier for employers/the government - if it affects women's ability to 'care' for children in any way, then there will be screams and protests. Such a tax would almost certainly result in some women (some! many are also opposed to the screaming/shouting that goes on) howling about how they're being taxed unfairly because of wanting to stay at home rather than repay the costs of their education.


Sadly, it's a common thing in Poland - I know of several women who received an expensive education from the State, only to put a couple of years in at work, then to more or less effectively retire from work to become full time mothers. I do know plenty others who hate such women and who went back to work as soon as they could - but it doesn't change anything.


Not in terms of what gives money back for the expensive education that they received. The cost of putting someone through 17 years of education only for that person to become economically unproductive is huge - especially as Poland is struggling with the amount of debt that ZUS has already.


I think they should pay it back the same as everyone else does through taxation. That's why I think a post-graduate tax makes the most sense - and it also reduces the incentives to stay at home rather than working. If someone wants to stay at home with children rather than putting them into child care - then they have to pay regardless. It might also discourage people from studying for the hell of it - there are far, far, far too many people studying 'unemployment factory' subjects now - people who would be better off learning a trade and getting into the workplace.


I don't know actually. I think Poland is much more open minded to new things than the West is - but I think for those that are only after making as much money as possible in the shortest time, the West has far more opportunity. Poland seems to be much more of a long game, if that makes sense?

The tax would not work for graduates who move on to work in other countries. as there are taxation agreements in place between countries. You can't tax a Polish employee in the UK on his earnings and then have the Polish tax authority tax him again.

I believe the only sensible way is for graduates who avail of free education in Poland, Polish or other, should go on to be given a work placement in government/social or private sector on minimum wage for a period of 1-2 years. The work will be seen by the University as a form of extended education, it will also give the graduate real time in the workplace/field.

Wouldn't that just require some legal trickery, or a simple agreement that the graduate tax is exempt from such agreements? Or even simply not calling it a tax, but rather a loan collected in the same way as in the UK?


I agree with this, but I think the problem is that it may fall foul of freedom of movement rules. But as you say - if it's seen as an integral part of the University education, perhaps it can work - but I guess you might get the problem that they will still leave Poland and be able to complete the experience elsewhere.

Perhaps the only real way forward is to introduce tuition fees. England has finally reached the level where people are getting discouraged from studying for the sake of it - which is no bad thing.

There are not enough jobs as it is. Again, how would you create all those extra jobs? And where would you employ graduates of philosophy, Mongolian studies, or fine arts, to name just a few problematic areas?

BTW, did you know a similar programme was in place in communist Poland? Graduates would get sent away to small towns and villages to work off their debt to society. The only difference is, once you have free market economy and private business, you can no longer force just any employer to participate. Also, by forcing all graduates to take up mandatory work for the state, you would make it impossible for young people to set up their own businesses or change career paths. Terribly heavy-handed and communist, all this.

In a sense, this might actually work - universities would have to find them placements, so if they can't find placements, they can't graduate - which would almost certainly cut down many of the more ridiculous and worthless specialisations and force universities to concentrate on what is employable. They could offer tuition fees as an alternative to such a programme - so if you want to study Fine Arts or Philosophy, you pay.


I think it actually makes a lot of sense in certain fields such as medicine and teaching. But it could also be replaced by volunteer work too - someone spending their summers helping disadvantaged kids could be exempt from post graduate experience. I could certainly arrange such experience for anyone interested - it's a struggle to find volunteers as it is!

There's no easy fix - any solution to the current problem is going to involve pain.

So what is your suggestion Magda?


There are some very bright kids out there who deserve a chance in life, uni fees may just keep them on the farm. As far as I am informed the graduates of 2014 will be Polands last free education kids. Fees will be introduced as from 2015.

ok last post for the evening. Yes I understand that this happens but if these women prove themselves capable of standing among their peers and graduate (let's imagine for a moment that the type of degree isn't a factor) then that's a good indication they're the kind of people you'd want in charge of the next generation of the country. If they choose to become managers of human resources for the country then who's to say that isn't paying back the state, so-to=speak?

Now, that isn't to say the financial costs shouldn't be considered, I don't argue with you there at all. I completely see where that perspective has to come into play.

However, doing that would be hard. And if I'm really going to make it solely financial, then I ought to sit down and with very accurate economics, break down the numbers comparing the costs of the following:

- paying for a woman's education (we could do this for a man as well but since the point of contention is mothers then I recommend restricting ourselves to this)

- the cost to society for no child
- the cost to society for children raised badly
- the benefit to society for children raised well

Quantifying those things would allow me to compare those things. After that then I think it safer to start moving towards any gripe about financial costs.

And you may in fact have a legitimate point.
But I don't know what numbers you've based your argument on so I can't agree until I do.
If you know of these calculations then I'd like in on them.


Yeah I've been following your answers to these and I found myself nodding my head to your responses and yeah I was wondering the same.