Białowieża National Park in Poland

We've got one troll with the ad hominems and now the other with straw men.

Where did I say that "no human inference into the forests is the only correct way of going about it"?

Although, actually, this is Szyszko's own approach to the small strict reserve, which is in fact as you state: no human interference. So is he wrong in his premise, according to you? Should be logging the strict reserve too?

Very specifically, and let's be completely clear about this, the protests and statements of the Polish Academy of Sciences etc are against the tripling of logging in the other 83% of the forest, including the felling of old-growth stands, resulting from binning the previous agreed management plan. This is why the EU has taken Poland to court. This is the EU injunction (law) that Poland has broken and is being prosecuted for.

I know you want to try and muddy the waters to deflect things, straight from the internet troll playbook, but I'll just keep dragging you back to the issue.

That only works if you plant the trees and then leave them, to lock upo the carbon in the forest ecosystem and especially the soils. Planting trees to offset carbon is actually worse if you come back after 60 years and harvest the trees for firewood or making other products - that eventually releases all of the carbon that the trees contained, as well as adding more for the transportation, planting, felling, processing and burning to keep babcia warm in Hajnowka.

This is why natural forests like Bialowieza are much more valuable as carbon stores than the plantation that Szyszko is turning it into. The carbon has been locked in the soil and trees for many centuries, and in the peaty areas of the forest for thousands of years. This is all released when the machines move in to tear up the soil and tear down the teees.

Oh bite me, no one force you to respond to me, and when you do make sure you won't go ad hominin ( that is the second and the last warning).

By the way the only one who muddles the issue is you. Are you trolling Mr. guest account?
So you concerned with some BS pervious menadgemnty plan. Why do I sense that is about money? someone wanted to make some bucks, expected some grants or such and now they're left with a 'szyszko' in the pocked. Hence all this lament.

So now you're moving on to money as a motive. First you* tried the science as a defence for the logging, you failed (I gave you the Polish Academy of Sciences, for one). You tried the legal defence, you failed (I gave you the EU legal injunction). Now you're trying the money, though ironically Szyszko gets the money no matter what happens - either from the EU to fund Natura 2000 or from selling the wood.

*I'm grouping you and gumishu together as a single unit, as your arguments and debating style are so similar.

oh I'm so flattered - so how is in your own words spruce suppressing fires?

and remember you said all conifers promote wildfires first :) mister educated type

They very obviously failed - there's no reasoned defence for the damage being inflicted in Bialowieza. It's entirely a case of reactionary individuals blindly being apologists for a reactionary and malevolent regime.

do you preffer progressive and malevolent regimes?

A silly question. And you are still unable to justify the wanton destruction of Europe's largest virgin forest by the cretinous PiS regime and their crony capitalists.

I posted a link to a scientific paper all about it. You don;t seem to have understood it, I can't help that. Maybe consider enrolling for a night class in science, or reading?

PiS and crony capitalists is really news to me - I suspect it is a figment of your imagination - most of Puszcza Białowieska was a comodity forest for most of the PRL time


I understand you cannot explain it in your own words - quite telling if you ask me

And now Szyszko's adopting the PRL policy by taking us back to those good old days of 'commodity forest', eh? Is that what you're saying?

I don't have to, I posted you a comprehensive science paper that says it much better than I can. Did you have trouble with the long words? If you can't comprehend a journal paper, pal, then I really can't help you.

I suspect many things are.


That is probably the lamest excuse yet for the wanton destruction of Bialowieza by PiS...


Basically yes, and the standard "but Americans lynch blacks" argument, basically a criticism is somehow unjustified unless everything everywhere is perfect. Good to hear he equates the current regime to the not so rosy past.

I'm not moving anywhere. You simply failed to convince me to your way of seeing things. A large part of the reason of your failure to do so lays in the fact you came across as arrogant and authoritarian. I don't have to take your word for anything.

On the other hand your inability to understand others could be due to your low IQ, you don't see a need to explain your views to others for whom it might be not so obvious as it seems to you, you don't understand that some people may have a different point of view on the issue, you don't understand inquisitive, for you all is either black or white.


No, first of I refuted successfully (some might disagree) your claim that supposedly science is on YOUR side in regard to logging or not logging question. The some goes for your laughable claims about UNECO (a political organization) being some kind of an impartial ethereal being, a demigod that can rule the right and wrongs of all things.

Then you moved into the EU law argument which I don't care about. In my opinion the EU has no say or shouldn't have say in the internal Polish affairs.

In fact you are very good in surfing on the surface and saying nothing (mostly repetitive stuff or ad hominem digs that remind me of Harry) while at the same time creating an impression that you say a lot.

You haven't addressed any questions or doubts head on. Your standard response is either to skip the issue, talk around it or use an appeal to authority ( a classic logical fallacy). Didn't they teach you logic at school, Mr Academic title?


Maybe, but than those who oppose him (as we are talking about them) don't get any money if Szyszko keep logging as he does. Can you make an argument that actually make sense rather than shoot yourself in the foot?

I'm grouping you with morons holding academic titles and there plenty of those - unfortunately.

Not sure if any of your arguments are logical....you appear to fail to understand what is being said by others.....sometimes in life you come across such overwhelming evidence that you just have to accept the argument and move on. Whether you choose to do that is up to you of course....but with this sort of attitude your 'logic' just wouldn't lead to any progress in any shape or form.....you would just keep going round and round...delay after delay.....and the Polish people deserves better than this...they want to move on and get decisions made, be it on the logging crime in Bialowieza forest or all the other issues which face Poland today to help improve the economy and lifestyle of Poland.

I think that the reason why some posters on this site are becoming a little short with you is that you seem not to understand (or do not want to understand) the subtleties involved in dealing with beetle infestation and how important it is to accept EU law.....the consequence of this continued action by PIS in the forest is likely to result in costly fines, bad blood between EU and Poland, dissatisfied public, voters turning against PIS, reduction or withdrawal of EU funding...etc What a terrible example PIS has set with the logging crime...advocating greed and an attitude of doing what you like, disrespect of their EU partners....not a great way to educate children/young people for the future......and sadly not great for Poland.

Braveheart. The world is flat. That is my opinion. I don't care how many snowflake long hair boffins say otherwise. This is the post truth world now. My fact carries the same weight as your fact. Fact.

Those pesky experts, daring to disagree en-masse with that great scientist Kaczynski.

It could actually be more serious than that, as Poland could lose FSC certification, meaning that it would be unable to sell any timber (from any forest) on the international market. That would be devastating for the forestry industry, and cost the country billions of euros in exports.


Whoah, is this the 'fire and fury' that you warned me about, if I displeased you?! Chicago has sure lost its edge. No wonder North Korea is feeling emboldened...


And in my opinion the laws of gravity should not apply, but they still do...just like EU law in Poland.


I know, which is why throughout I have been refer yiu to the opinion of experts, such as the Polish Academy of Sciences and the State Council for Nature Conservation. But you and gumishu seem to think that qualifications and expertise actually counts against an opinion in some way, and that a council of 205 nations with elected directors (UNESCO) is somehow a political stooge for Brussels snowflakes. I guess that's perhapos because you didn;t do so well in high school yourself, so you prefer the reverse snobbery of deriding actual qualifications, training and epxertise in favour of 'street smarts' gained on the other side of the Atlantic, or other side of Poland.


Of course you're not. Is it because this is your job? oii.ox.ac.uk/blog/computational-propaganda-in-poland-false-amplifiers-and-the-digital-public-sphere/

Cut down on the number of quotes per post

Casualobserver....thanks for your comprehensive response....it would indeed be grave for Poland if they lost their FSC certification and be unable to sell any timber on the international market....this is my major worry, the fact that Poland will lose any credibility it had and on top of that lose contracts and future work...at the end of the day it will be the Polish people who will suffer and any hope that the economy will improve will again take many, many years to get any nearer to achieving...and Poland will continue to remain behind most of the economies in Europe, all as a result of stubbornness and this sort of unrealistic belief that Poland will achieve everything overnight.....its not going to happen with this approach, it just won't happen....Poland needs to embrace all aspects of a modern society and I feel that this includes just about everything which the public aspire to....if people want to continue debating, arguing, shouting, discussing every single issue to its nth degree and still not accept overwhelming evidence, then Poland will not benefit from any hope it had to improve the economy and the future for the Polish people.....it really is that simple.

@Braveheart16

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps a sizeable portion of Poles are fine with that? Were not trying to be the wealthiest most modern most liberal multicultural European country. We dont care about being the eus golden child like Germany or France. Tens of millions of poles are happy where their country is. Personally im against over logging bialowieza as well as the abortion thing they tried to change but that doesn't mean I don't support how Poland is evolving overall. When they realize they went too far with something they change their policy and correct course. That may happen if there's a lot of pressure from EU and the pl industry is sanctioned as well as local pressure. If the eu as well as local poles pushes pis about this issue perhaps it will change its course. However with other issues pis and poles are mostly united in defiance of the eu and we won't change our stance. That's why pis ratings are so high now. Ultimately we don't want our culture traditions and way of life eroded so while we comply with the vast majority of eu laws, there are certain things that are a red line.

No sign of that so far, despite a year of protest and condemnation, and if they carry on much longer it will be too late. Failure to consider your own scientific advisory body is not a sign of a moderate or mature Minister that is willing to take measured and informed decisions. What amazes me is that Kaczynski hasn't intervened with any comment. The Bialowieza issue is a complete own goal for PiS - it attracts very wide international protest, really affects Poland's international reputation, has caused street protests, a case in the EU Court with potential fines and loss of FSC certification, and threatens the status of one of Poland's few World Heritage Sites of international prestige. And for what? Is all that really worth the trouble it's causing for PiS? It could so easily be avoided if Kaczynski wanted to. So one can ask: what is Kaczynski getting out of this, in terms of benefits? Or, what dirt does Szyszko hold over Kaczynski or others that makes him untouchable?

@CasualObserver

That's because most poles don't care about listening to a polish chick with dreadlocks representing green peace (which regularly prints ads hiring activists for $400 a week in the local paper). We have other things to worry about. So far the pressure locally and abroad isn't enough for the government to care much.

Sorry to break it to you but a forest in Poland isn't the top concern for politicians, in pl and abroad, no matter how many Greenpeace people on the payroll are screaming and shouting.

Want proof? None of those certifications have been threatened nor any sanctions on polish timber despite a year of (often paid) protests and it doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it does get to that pis will probably stop or just send forest guards to keep people out. Like I said I'm against over logging but it is it what it is.

How about the Polish Academy of Sciences, which is the state's scientific advisory body on everything from drugs to energy to smog and forests? Should people listen to them?


And sorry to break it to you, but the EU Court of Justice has charged Poland over the logging, and a Polish Minister had to go and defend his position, so it does seem to be rather important on a political level.


In fact, the ECJ handed down a legal injunction in July and institigated a court case in August, the FSC is considering withdrawing certification on Polish timber, and we are still early in the process so on the current trajectory it will result in EU fines (or budget cuts) for Poland, and loss of timber exports. That is what will happen within about 6 months unless something changes.

@CasualObserver

People decide what to listen to, what advice to heed and what not to heed. While pl of academy of sciences undoubtedly has spread valuable information on a variety of topics, a lot of poles don't really care and the logging isn't at the point where the whole forest is in danger. Poles, although many are nature lovers and we have world class mountaineers and such, never really cared all that much about the local environment and put prosperity ahead of conservation. E.g. coal mining was a mainstay and one of the best jobs in prl and still they're trying to hang onto this industry. While you and I as well as many others think there's better alternstives you can't explain that to a pl miner with mouths to.feed.

Eu court of justice instigated a case which means little. People companies governments etc go to this or that court everyday. If the heat gets too much and this problem becomes too pesky, Poland will drag out negotiations for another year or however long it takes and if they feel fhey can't win and their certification is truly in jeapordy they'll give something up. It almost reminds me of whenever its time for Mexico to get its certification from the us as a fighter of drug trafficking. Well everyone knows the 1 2 3 plaza system esp the dea (one million to the cops, two million to the interior, three million for the military). Nonetheless whenever Mexico is about to receive billions (far more than pis lil timber operation) from the us to fight a phony drug war they give something up in negotiation - some policy may get changed but in Mexico its more direct usually - politician they don't like will get their career ended,, some benefactor gets arrested and killed in jail, whatever it may be. Meanwhile the plaza system remains and drugs are cheaper than ever.

So you already know what will happen in 6 months?
You have future knowledge of what the courts decisions will be and what actions Poland's government, eu reps, and judges will all take? You must be the reincarnation of nostradamus. Perhaps I can ask you about some stock tips?

the so-called better alternatives are all more expensive than coal Dirk - thanks to coal (and lignite) Poland has one of the cheapest electricity prices in Europe

@gumishu

True.. money isn't everything but nonetheless it seems to be one of the most motivating factors in decisions. Also a lot of energy use to from Russia but not anymore as of very recently. I have family living around various parts of Silesia and many of the older people I know who lived near the mines but weren't workers have a lot of lung problem. The Soviets never bothered to really make these plants clean and efficient. Now there's some efforts taking place but its iffy with the eus and us wars on even clean coal.

On the contrary, it doesn't happen every day. I don't think a nation has ever defied an ECJ injunction, as Poland has done, so this is new territory and the consequences could be severe (fines).


No, but I said what will happen if nothing changes. Poland has broken an ECJ injunction - this is fact. Poland has no defence against this. The other part of the case is whether the logging is legal. But it's now two cases instead of one, and Poland will certainly lose one case, and maybe both.

Poland is now mixing illegal (against EU injunction) logging of a UNESCO World Heritage Site with legitimate timber, meaning that the FSC will not be able to certify it. These are logical conclusions to current trajectories, *unless something changes* (which I what I said).

I agree with your synopsis of how it will turn out, which is ironic, because unless you want to see the forest logged to the point of no return (and you say you don't), then you're actually on the same side as the 'dreadlock chick from Greenpeace', as Greenpeace Polska and Client Earth are the major players that have been applying the heat that you say will be needed to stop it. They initiated the legal case against Poland, and they are the ones making all the noise.

But don;t let this be a case of 'my friends enemy is my enemy'. If you think the logging is wrong and should stop, because that is what is right, then that is your opinion and you shouldn't feel like a traitor for saying so. Some politicians will want you to feel that way, or the other way, to gather you under their wing. But in cases of national heritage there is no politics. There is just right and wrong. I hope that on that, at least, we can agree.

I doubt it is the mines that cause health problems for those who were not workers - there were old dirty foundries including lead foundries in Silesia during the communist times

@CasualObserver

Oh believe me I am furthest from the side of green peace lol. Most of the average people there maybe somewhat care about the environment. Lets see how many stay once their checks stop coming. Its ultimately a political pressure organization masking behind noble goals being financed by those with specific political agendas... Just like the countless of other supposed ngos and other bs that have been corrupted by this or that party and their money. I don't buy any bs movements unless they are truly grassroots and actually supported by the majority of a country's citizens. Neither is really the case here.

My lessers enemy enemy is my friend is how the world has worked since cavemen started beating each other with sticks and stones. Why do you think the sunnis and Israelis have buddied up so much? Same with Iran/China/Pakistan/Russia. Sure they have their differences, but they're united against us/eu especially in a geopolitical and military context.

I said over logging is wrong. I somehow doubt that pis will allow bialowieza to turn into a barren plain. Also they don't cut the younger trees, mainly bc they're less valuable but that still means trees will regrow. Ultimately if we worried about not stepping on a bug like the jainists in India we wouldn't get anything done.