Białowieża National Park in Poland

Except its an 11 page long thread which I didn't even start commenting on till the last few pages.

Anyway, go for it... c ya!!

Good for the government for openly breaking its word and not following clear regulations that it agreed to? Weird world you got goin' on in your noggin kid. Weird, weird world.

Governments, corps, etc. do this every single day... this is nothing new...

The point is they're resisting forces of the ECJ which is constantly overstepping their jurisdictions and powers. I'm going to listen to a bunch of supposed judges with specific ideologies enacting politicized interpretations of the law who have chauffeured limos paid for by Europeans.

"the ECJ deliberately and systematically ignores fundamental principles of the Western interpretation of law, that its decisions are based on sloppy argumentation, that it ignores the will of the legislator, or even turns it into its opposite, and invents legal principles serving as grounds for later judgments".

Over half of the ECJ judges don't even have any appellate experience.

How has the ECJ overstepped its mandate in this case ?

I also think they don't need chauffeur driven cars - just like Jarek does not (the dude is unable to drive).

Hey, more respect! You're addressing an internationally renowned expert in forestry _and_ international law!

Idk if you're Polish or not, but to many Poles we believe that our home affairs should be left to our own courts. While we support an economic unity and movement of people and good within the EU, we do not appreciate political and legal intervention within our sovereign borders.

Wait... you live within the borders of Poland? I thought you're in chicago or casper wyoming or some such....

@mafketis

I said I'm not an expert on forestry, however it doesn't take an expert nor phd to realize that the logging is only taking place in a tiny fraction of the forest hence the entire forest is not in jeapordy as some people claim.

Also yes, I have a home in Poland, US, and travel quite a bit for work. I'm a citizen of both nations.

By 'our borders' I am referring to the sovereign borders of Poland.

lol! I don't care what those pests look like. At least you have a sense of humor, unlike all those sour little red commissars who more oft than not support you/or you them.

Well, at the very least it is clear now that all this argument about The BNP has little to do with logging or ecology but everything with political games and rocking for power.

Of course. When under PO 57k m3 was logged within a 3 year period (average of 19k m3 a year) from 2012-2015 , 90% of the 10 year quota which was set in 2012, no one said anything, there were no Greenpeace employees in the forest, etc.

From mos.gov.pl/en/news/details/news/we-want-to-protect-the-bialowieza-forest/

I know you are the scientist, but those are strange numbers. Why are you referring to cubic metres? If you mean square metres then that 57K seems a tiny amount. It's 6% of 1 km² and it's roughly the same size as a modest shopping mall. As I understand from COs very clear and well presented data then what is being proposed at the moment is clearance of 12% of the Polish portion of the forest.

But in any case I think we all understand the jist of your argument - cutting down trees is better than letting in Muslims, trees eventually grow again and we are tired of experts.

That's how they measure the amount of wood logged. Its measured in cubes because it has 3 dimensions (adding height) as opposed to just 2 dimensional area...

The annex calls for a quota of 188k m3 to be logged within an area of roughly 78km2 which yes would be 12% of the Polish part and only 2.6% of all BF.

As you say it is a small amount whether its 50 some k or 180k... it will grow back as it is being replanted and if it wasn't its still only a tiny fraction of the forest both in Poland and overall.

Good thing reasonable people are in charge of such decisions.

Making cheap shots...not really very mature....as a salesman is this the best you can do..?


Yes but the issue here is that the majority of scientists seem to disagree with what is going on with illegal logging of the forest....


Is this the best you can do....to 'question' whether CO has a PHD etc...you really must be desperate......does it really have to come down to 'mine is bigger than yours'...if you want to put forward an argument you should try to explain why you feel it is ok for the illegal logging to continue taking place in the B Forest.....and why it is right to blindly follow the PIS party line....(this should not be political but it seems to me that your opinion has been clouded by your support of PIS.....I think it would be better to distance yourself from your political views and look at what your views are ....not those of a political party.......

What CO has been posting are in my mind logical, intelligent and non political responses to the various points raised.....I think that you can see from the many postings from CO that he has clearly expressed his expertise on this topic concerning the B Forest.....you appear to be grasping at straws with your comments and slurs.....perhaps it's time to accept the facts that illegal logging is taking place in the B Forest and the fact that the EU will not be patient forever....you seem unable to accept that Poland is in the EU and must accept european law....this is not the wild West where you can do anything you like and refuse to comply etc....I know it's difficult for you to change but this is how it is....it's no good arguing and thinking it will all go away...it won't....the longer you and possibly many others continue to support the illegal logging the longer it will take you to realize that this is not a case of 'I am a PIS supporter and must support everything they do' but a crucial issue in supporting the protection of a forest which is of immense benefit to Poland. It is not about looking after the welfare of local people who rely on the forest to create handicrafts and wood for their heating....there are many ways to achieve this without cutting down trees from a protected forest.....just think....its not bad to admit you are wrong, in fact you will be richer for doing so and gain much respect....

this is not a political issue on behalf of PIS, it is in fact a common shared understanding of the need to maintain and protect a Polish treasure

It's very true... the athletes at D1 schools tend to chose majors such as parks and recreation, forestry, sports management, etc. so they have more time for practice and games. If you attended a D1 school you'd also know that's true.


Well most scientists have either a PhD or at least a masters so there's nothing wrong with questioning what his qualification are. He can work at the some Polish science academy or even CERN - that's fine - but is he a scientist or website admin or a security guard there? As someone who studied medicine, if a person doesn't know what the scientific method (which based on his strange analogies and fumbling with the criteria of CO2 as it pertains to the scientific method - one of the most elementary things that a scientist learns) I can only make the conclusion that either he doesn't have an advanced degree in science or is a tech or something. That's fine it's not a big deal. I'm not a scientist by trade either. My degrees are in business but as a person who did both undergrad and grad at liberal arts universities I think it's important for an individual to be well rounded. Also, I spend a lot of time in forests and nature in general - especially hiking, hunting, fishing, boating, kayaking, rock climbing etc.

Not desperate. Remember, I'm the one who's supporting the current logging - you're the ones fighting against it to no avail as there was logging yesterday, today, and will be tomorrow. EU threatened a several mil eu fine and 300k eu a day. They can make all the threats they want - the question is can they back it up and enforce it? It appears no, just like their empty threats several months ago of fining Poland 2 bil EU for not taking in migrants. We've resisted since 2015 and will continue to defy courts located outside of Polish borders.


Time will tell. For now logging is continuing. Too bad, so sad.
If it doesn't go away we'll negotiate and possibly give something up IF it means loss of money, support, or something else that's important and strategic. That's how it works.


Except I NEVER said I support PiS and only PiS. In fact, I specifically stated that I was against certain policies of theirs.

It's not about PiS - it's about interlopers sticking their nose into our affairs. EU was meant to be an economic unity that promotes free movement of people and goods. Not an organization that thinks they can exercise political and judicial control from thousands of kilometers away. We Poles won't stand for it and our democratically elected government for once has our backs in this regard.

It will be interesting to see whether PIS will now stop the logging in view of the impending fines. We'll know within two weeks anyway if not before.

That's already in December which IINM is not excactly peak logging season.... (unless you own a christmas tree farm).

Again, the European insitutions move with the speed of freezing molasses so even if they do stop briefly in the winter they'll make the case that the sanctions no longer apply once they start up again and European institutions will once more move evere so slooooooooooowwwwwllllly into the breach...

Merged:

Polish cow does a runner

It seems a nice story, however if she gets pregnant, the size of the calf could kill her.

As they say, big is great when it's going in, but not so great when it's coming out...


bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-42803471

birth size is usually determined by the size of the mother, so the question is more would the calf be developed enough to survive by the time it needs to eject?

You'd think so, and I did too, however the Polish scientist in the article seemed worried about it. Whatever happens, I hope the cow has a good life and doesn't end up in kebabs, Mcdonalds and dogfood.

Well, as I said earlier, I am - in forest management and biodiversity. Seeing as you ask, I have a BSc, Masters and a PhD in the subjects. So, please take it from me that you swallowed a political line from a politician was cutting down the reserve and selling it (which benefitted his political and business friends), against the advice of the Polish Academy of Sciences, whose advice he was supposed to listen to as Environment Minister. As an expert on the subkect of forests, I am also telling you that it was wrong, very wrong. As a salesman of...what exactly? You are telling us it's all ok. I suppose it coems doe to whether readers of this thread put more faith in the comments of a salesman or a scientist.


Wrong, when Poland voluntarily joined the EU, and agreed to abide by all the treaties, and agreed to Bialowieza being a Natura 2000 site and under the regulation of the Habitats and Birds Directives, then it became all EU citizen's affairs, as it is a shared resource and a shared heritage. Hell, EU citizens paid for the road upgrade to develop develop the tourism that made the region rich. So as long as Poland takes EU cash, and sits on EU councils, and casts EU votes, and enjoys all of those benefits, then Bialowieza Forest is an EU affair. As a European, it is also the cultural affair of all of us. I thought PiS, which their faux defence of 'European culture' might appreciate that, but apparently not where quick cash and exerting power is involved. That should be an alarm bell. Cos if they'll log Bialowieza, there is literally nothing they wont do to any other thing, place or icon when the whim takes them.

I dont think youre a phd let alone in this topic The reason why is you constantly decribe reasons why pis shouldnt actively manage forests EXCEPT for actual organic biology, zoology, botany, forestry, etc. If you are a phd, exactly what thesis did you write and at which institution did you have to defend your thesis? Were you published or not? A lot of phds need to also write for journals schools etc and be peer reviewed just to hold onto their phd. You would have a wealth of knowledge on the science behind being against active management which you would cite, and not economic reasons by a left leaning site or basic forestry that can be easily found with a good search.

You talk about szyszko, pis, politics, cash, how its a nature preserve, eu treaty, etc. You never give detailed reasons based on science from professional peer reviewed journals or atleast cite the forestry science which you supposedly lesrned over a decade. You care more about political bs and your dislike of pis policy and you use that as the basis of your arguement, not science which is what a forestry phd or even master do.

Also, any self respecting phd would not bring up another persons job in a debate. This makes me believe you are simply one of the trolls with numerous accounts

And its up to eu to decide to fine poland 100k a day. So far they have not amd quite a bit of time has passed since they were pressing this issue. Szyszko is now gone but logging in the form of clearing and forest management will continue.

Perhaps theyll clamp dowm on over logging but itll likelt contimue as long as pis is im charge or the eu actually enforces all the threats sanctions fines theyve threaten poland with for years and none have happened not the one for migrants, not this forest one, and their article 7 is doomed. Plus there appears to be little threat to eu funds which really are a small fraction of polands nomimal gdp anyway. To me its not even about the forest but as a hiker and person who spends a lot of time in nature i obviously dont want such a beautiful foresy to disappear or be drastically reduced to like a fraction of its size. That clearly won't happen at this rate. Plus its a good economic boost for the people in the east.

When Poland joined the EU it signed up to the rules and regulations required from member states....its a bit like a club, where members have to comply with the rules....its really that simple......its no good constantly trying to bend or adapt the rules to suit your needs....there is a protocol to follow and if you don't then penalties will eventually happen. Poland bas been given chance after chance to stop the illegal logging (in the hope of eliminating some bug/insect....I don't think so...) Everyone can see through this façade, and to be honest the EU have been very patient..... Poland has received substantial funding over recent years and the economy has improved as a result.....Yes Poland could leave the EU but of course they will have to repay their loan back to the EU.

People condoning the logging of the B. Forest are very short sighted in my view and fail to see the bigger picture which is that there are many more important issues to be resolved in Poland than to make a few quick zloty's from selling wood....issues like pollution, jobs, employment law, increasing the level of wages, etc... Not only is the logging illegal but if this happens once, it will happen again and again whenever someone decides its a good time to kill beetles and of course make some more money at the same time....it is not sustainable.....the government should focus on issues which will improve the overall lifestyles of the Polish people not selecting logging which only serves a minority of people connected to logging and is very short term in its nature.

I think many Polish people know that it is clearly wrong for this logging to continue in a protected forest.....why don't the government understand?

That's what almost Polish people do on a daily basis, why wouldn't the government do so? Governments are representatives of the collective essence of the nation and in Poland that means flagrant disregard for any and all formal rules.


The only people I've heard defend it in the media are those with an economic interest in logging. In real life I haven't heard anyone defend it.

You are right. The Polish public opinion in general has never supported all those lobbying groups from the forestry and hunting circles.

Lasy Państwowe (National Forestry) is a state within the state, the same can be said about the associations of hunters. Those two groups are interlinked on many levels including having influential friends among MPs from all political parties. That damage-doer Environment Minister Jan Szyszko was clearly a representative of their interests. Thank God he has been fired from the government with the blessing of Our Dear Leader Chairman Jarosław Kaczyński and the logging in the Białowieża Forest has been stopped.

I've got a friend who works for LP who says exactly the same thing. in He's disgusted by what was going on in Białowieża, and said from the very beginning that it was about cash and nothing more. I don't remember the numbers he gave, but LP has more than enough cash in reserve to pay every single forester in Białowieża to sit and do nothing.


Wasn't Komorowski heavily involved with those circles too?

I can understand that point of view, but laws, rules and regulations are made for a reason and can be changed or adapted in the normal course of government business....If of course the Polish people are unhappy with the laws/rules/regulations then then have the power of the vote, or complain to their political representative, not to try to adapt or bend the rules etc on 'a daily basis' as you say. This is not the wild west where anything goes, otherwise you have anarchy.....its quite straightforward really....you cannot just do what you like in life and expect to have a rewarding, satisfying and positive lifestyle, but what you will have is a demotivating, unsatisfied and negative population where people distrust each other and are all trying to out do each other at any cost, bending the rules and promoting an 'I'm all right Jack' attitude and sod the rest of you.

People may believe that bending the laws/rules etc is an acceptable approach to life but this behaviour will just continue to manifest and continue through the generations and inhibit any progress needed to improve the lifestyle of the Poles. Respect for the law is the way in which developed countries progress and Poland may not be quite there yet....lets hope that people start to understand that respect for the law is important for everyone to live in a happy and civilised society.

Turning a blind eye to the logging in the B. Forest is a good example of allowing an illegal activity to continue without any form of redress for the people who are guilty of allowing this to happen.

Which are constantly being broken by the France or Germany, or given an exception like it was in the case of uk. Only when it comes to those weaker states, poorer within the EU ALL those laws and regulations' became sacrosanct.

Hell, some internal laws passed by those 'weaker' members that NEVER had been subject to the EU laws and reg. are somehow subject to the scrutiny of the EU commission.

Funnily enough if asked what article of the EU treaty gives them this or that right to interfere into intern. affairs of an intepetnded state - you can hear only crickets or some looser stammering out some euphemisms and slogans.

F the EU and their laws&regulations.

Article 7 is what you are looking for. Signed by Poland and never challenged in the previous PiS govt.

Not exactly connected but this year I have noticed that many thousands of trees alongside the country roads are being cut down, the excuse is the roads have been reclassified?? and trees along the roads cause accidents???????.

The fact is many places I used to drive through were once an attraction in their own right, but now the trees have gone all you see is old commie factories and rundown buildings chimneys shittyy datchas etc.

So much for promoting agro tourism in my area , Its gonna be a bleak and horrid here soon , All hail the motor car I guess.

Welcome to the problem caused by the new laws on cutting trees.

You know fine well that Dolny Śląsk could be an agrotourism hotbed, but...cut the trees! more cash now!.