Białowieża National Park in Poland

where possible the forest will be allowed to reseed itself - where not it will be planted by foresters - from foresters Białowieża manifesto - and strict reserves including the Białowieża National Park will not be touched

btw Dirk do you believe that global warming is caused by human CO2 emissions? I don't

It's not about a barren plain, it's about turning the natural self-seeded forest, with standing and fallen deadwood and all the associated natural processes, into a managed plantation. I wont lay it on thick about the whats and whys, but the objections are very specifically about that - changing the forest from one type of tree stands into another type of tree stands. I can appreciate that to many people one tree is as good as another, but the difference is 'wilderness' or semi-wilderness versus man-made timber crop. To some people, particuarly forest scientists and those interested in European nature, heritage and culture, these things are very important, and Bialowieza is the best of the best. Which is why UNESCO listed it as a World Heritage Site.

To those who really care, Bialowieza is like a church. To those who don't, it's just some trees. Just like to those who care, Wawel castle is iconic and meaningful, but to those who don't it's just a building.

the forest will not be turned into a commercial forest anyway even in places where it will be re-planted by foresters

Ssssh with your smoke and mirrors claptrap, gumishu, the grown-ups are talking.

Go and pick up your pay from your botnet handler.

what?

are you insinuating something mister educated prick

Oh you betcha!

@gumishu

To me global warmin may be a partially man made phenomenon due to co2 effects on the ozone. Nonetheless it is still a theory and cannot be proven by the scientific method bc no such experiment can be designed with current tech. So to me jury's out on that one for now as I simply don't know nor have the time energy or even interest really to become a PhD on climatology. However i've seen what pollution does and its not pretty esp. I was actually surprised how relatively easy it is to landfill radioactive medical waste but thats another story. We def need to start taking better care of earth and/or develop more tech in this regard though or well all end up living like the Chinese with the mainlanders choking under the pollution and those w money or some business sense colonizing fertile lands afar. And yes the Chinese are the modern day colonizers. Good for them gotta give credit where its due.

There's over 1k in UNESCO sites worldwide the most being in Europe. Perhaps that says something about Europeans and European history? Idk that's another topic. Either way entire plots of land, huge temples, entire areas of public space even parts of or entire cities are considered UNESCO sites. If it weren't for mans intrusion positive or negative people wouldn't really be too interested in certain sites hence let them decay such as sites that have been delisted. Maybe Poland should have done a better job marketing bialowierza and putting up hotels and water slides around the area. That maybe would get people interested like the other more popular UNESCO sites. Also bialowieza is I believe 140k hectares.. That's larger than Long Island. Its not going anywhere bc of logging. Actually forests tend to be taken care of better by loggers than other economic activity especially mining.

But would you believe the consensus opinion of those who were PhD climatologists?


But only 17% is strict reserve. And the logging will now apply to at least 2/3 of the rest. It is exactly because of Bialowieza's size that it is also important, because the old growth forest allows sustainable populations of species that need a lot of space. If large areas of the forest are transformed, even if the strict reserves are left alone, then it could still lead to extinctions of species within the remaining untouched forest. This includes species like Three-toed Woodpecker, Lynx, and White-backed Woodpecker.


That's kind of missing the point I made in the last post. The main important thing about Bialowieza, asd wella s the size, is that it has been mostly taking care of itself for thousands of years. Once people start takijng control, then it is the end of the long line of natural processes, and we can never again get back to a point where we can observe what natural European forest looks like. Bialowieza is the unqiue benchmark in this respect, it is the only place where we can still get an idea of how natural lowland European forests looked before man started getting involved. So we can compare every other forest ecology study in lowland Europe with Bialowieza, to see how far from natural they have gone, what is 'normal' and what isn't, and how the screwed up forests can be restored. It's like a time machine, and it's the only one we have for the lowland forest that once covered much of Europe, and where our ancestors lived as hunter-gatherers. But once its gone, or changed, then its gone forever and we never get it back.

@CasualObserver

No bc climate change cannot be proven via the scientific method and a truly objective scientist would acknowledge that. Like I said to me jury's out on that one.

That human non interference is long gone. This is the age of computers and satellites. Not horse and buggy. No matter how 'natural' you try to keep an environment it will be interfered with one way or another for better or worse. There's nothing natural about electronically tagging elephants or the bison roaming in pl. The trees have all been exposed to more or less the same forces of nature and human society as the ones on my yard in poland. Yet that's one of the efforts of conservation. Its about maintaining a balance. I'm sure there's probably dead native Americans along British/American soldiers buried where I type this but that doesn't mean its gonna stop a road or house from being built. One of the most mysterious sites in the world mohenjo daro in turkey was discovered by a dude remodeling his house. Im sure he may have destroyed a wall or two of the ancient site and most would agree it was worth it as it lead to the discovery of an underground city big enough to fit 30k no one knew about.

If this logging was so rampant id say fine dude you got a point, its time they call it quits and pack up their ****. But the fact is its barely having a dent and logging is one of the least harmful things for a forest as long as you allow for the.trees you cut to be replenished. Wood is a renewable resource. They should replace what they've cut but even If They just left saplings and young trees alone, which they are, it wouldn't change. The forest is 140k hectares, several thousand kilometers squared... There only logging closest to the roads bc it makes economic and logistical sense. They could destroy everything within a square kilometer from every major road running through and still the percentage of trees cut to the total population of remaining trees would be nil.

You should be happy no gold was discovered in bialowieza.. Then itd be a **** show.. Do you know what happens when gold is found in an area? Everything goes to **** and only mercury mud and rocks are left. IF you're lucky there will be no mercury.

Neither can death! Seriously, science is just as much about probability and weight of evidence as it is about experimental replication.


Not in Bialowieza it aint. It's the least screwed up, least touched, best preserved bit of forest in lowland Europe. That's why there's so much noise about it. That's why it's so miraculous, surviving the industrial revolution, the Czars, the Nazis, the Communists... Thta's why it was listed as a World Heritage Site. This is the very last bit of primary forest on the continent. For real. This is the genuine 'wildwood' of folklore, the last bit left.

The logging is being rolled out across 2/3 of the forest, about 30 sq km. Why do that when you really don't have to?

@CasualObserver

Neither can death? Wtf are you talking about... All living things eventually die that's scientific fact (Hence why viruses aren't considered to be 'living' but bacteria are). Some scientists also thought the soul weighs exactly 21 grams. Its actually never really been proven nor disproven due to not enough experimentation. Idk what ur getting at with 'death' though but dying is a scientific phenomenon. What happens after is anyone's guess and hence not a scientific fact.

30 sq km / 3000 sq km size of bialowierza = 1/300 of the forest. That's close enough to nil.. Second such an activity of logging 2/3 of that amount would be physically impossible with harvesters. Plus most of this forest isn't even in Poland but in Belarus with a tiny fraction being a national park. No ones logging The national park portion from what I understand. The us army had trouble clearing Vietnam's forestry using daisy cutters and you expect poles to wipe out 2/3 of bialowieza with harvesters and chain saws? All while leaving all the small trees intact? Not gonna happen

You and I don't get to decide what 'really' has to be done and what doesn't 'really" have to be, how and done and when. These kinds of decisions are up to others who tend to weigh out various decisions. Atm it appears Poland has called the eu and ejc bluff just as they will shortly do with the refugee issue. If it comes down to negotation, they'll negotiate, pay a fine, etc - whatever action the appropriate parties decide is the best choice. These decisions impact peoples livelihoods and the east section of Poland is typically far poorer than the rest. It seems the most locals around the area don't really give two hoots about some logging. To them its a needed economic activity in a poorer often forgotten area of poland and Europe.

So you've now said that bialowierza isn't some pristine magical time.machine untouched by society but now 'minimally touched." The reason why its been so untouched is because of its sheer size and the fact that no more valuable commodities in the ground than the trees on top. Otherwise itd b destroyed just like the Amazonian jungle or Niger delta for oil, gold, silver etc. If your going to get all upset about trees being destroyed and the environment getting messed up I can tell you the problem is far worse in latam than it ever will be in Poland. At least in Poland the harvesters aren't leaving the area a barren wasteland.

It's true! You can't replicate death, because it's a one-time thing. So how do you know it's happening if you can't replicate it for the individual? You have to look at past deaths in the record, just like we look at past climate events in the record. No tricks, just using the analogy.


Yup, got my numbers mixed (I'm multi-tasking here!). 47 km2 is the strict reserve, the forest is 3000 km2. But the fact remains that the current logging plan is over 2/3 of the forest, so 2000 km2.


They're currently felling 200 trees per day.


It's just a crying shame that an important world heritage site is the football in all this. Shouldn't some things be above that kind of real politik?


Dude, I never said pristine, but i did say time machine. What it is is 'near primeval'. Some parts appear to be untouched. Some parts have archaeology, like the Amazon rainforest. But what it definitely *is* is primary forest, and it's the last of that.

Look, Poland has about 30% forest cover. Europe has about 35% forest cover. It's not like people are randomly focussing on Bialowieza. It really is that special to European and world research and heritage. No, it's not eden, yes, there are signs of activity here and there, but not much, and it's the best preserved bit of the what we all once had. It's the jewel in Poland's natural crown. It's the one thing Poland and Belarus has that nowhere else has got, anywhere in the world.


Ummm, you're showing a bit of a lack of knowledge here (no offence). It's actually mostly untouched because it was a royal hunting reserve for centuries, and even Goerring sent a crack unit to secure it as such. The wood itself is valuable. Everywhere else the baltic oak has been logged centuries ago, but in Bialowieza it escaped due to royal protection, largely because of the bison and bears that still existed until the 20th century.

@CasualObserver

That's not how the scientific method works, nor does it work through analogy.

200 trees a day? That amount can be easily increased if Poland bought the rest of US's stock of daisy cutters. Man these guys are lackin'

Yes, it was a royal hunting ground ages ago mainly because the nobles wanted to take the pleasure of killing a bison, lynxes, etc. themselves and as a retreat from plagues, poverty, turmoil, wars, etc. The animals in Bialowieza were protected, as they currently are, not the trees back in those days. I'm referring to the start of the 20th century to the present when modern geological surveys began and nothing of significance was found.

Sorry but I just don't buy that small scale logging (which is what 200 trees a day is) is going to suddenly deplete 3k square kilometers of forest. I had to cut 34 trees just last summer off my property which is only about 1 acre because of some stupid Asian beetle outbreak. I come home one day and the city puts some pink ribbons around a bunch of trees and tells me to cut em down or they'll do it and put a lien on my house if I don't pay em. America.

Ill point out that despite the 34 trees I cut myself, 2 pines that were destroyed due to high winds, there's still maybe around 13-14 fully grown trees left with new saplings that I planted. Take away the house, driveway, garden area, lawn, and that's some 13-14 trees on perhaps .1-.2 acre. The ones that were lost were replaced and will gradually grow back. I'm not a professional botanist, horticulturalist, forester etc. but I have a basic understanding and enough to understand how to keep a beautiful and sustainable property in a forested area. I spend significant time taking care of my land as there's always something to maintain - chop down, cut, burn, plant, prune, water, feed, etc. I don't use any unnatural fertilizers. If there's one truth its that timber and plant life are renewable resources. Nonetheless, if the loggers went way crazy and cut everything down (which would be a mammoth undertaking given the sheer size) then yes it would be an issue. It appears that's clearly not the case as they aren't cutting down younger trees, or even the protected trees in the national park. Furthermore, tons of the trees are dead in Bialowieza which normally would require removal by humans to prevent fires esp if residential areas and key infrastructure were close by as in most conserved and managed forests. At the rate they're going there really is little need for concern. Like I've said, there are far more damaging economic activities that would destroy the forest and that's why you should be happy they didn't find stuff like coal, oil, gold, etc in worthwhile quantities in that area. Then it would be a real cause for concern...

I don't know how much time you have spent in a forest but I can tell you I have a little bit of hiking experience. When a party goes hunting, hiking, etc in the forest they typically don't venture far for fear of losing their way - especially in an expanse as great as bialowierza. The worst thing is getting lost in the woods with no supplies and then the sun sets and you cant find your way. If youre lucky you'll have an unobstructed view at the north star. Your only option is to walk straight in one direction and even that doesn't work out always or use bright navigation markers (i.e. cloth or ribbon), make a compass, etc. While moderpeople can use a compass or even just a watch with a rotating bezel or if they're more crafty a magnetized pin in a cup of water even. The royals didn't have such conveniences and its unlikely they got to explore 10% of the forest much less accurately map boundaries without modern tools. And no, marking an X with some twigs or using rocks or whatever to mark points isn't gonna cut it.

The trouble with you is that you give up too easily on what is currently happening in the forest and try to justify this opinion with progress in technology and the 'changing world' to be the reason for allowing an absolute treasure to go to the wall....You do seem to have a lot to say and I would suggest you think about challenging the people who are making money from the logging of infested and healthy trees and just see if you can change opinion for the better...ie to stop this logging crime. Yes this is the age of computers and satellites but there are many other more suitable issues in Poland which I am sure would benefit from a good shake up.....maybe healthcare, benefits, increased regulation of road users, infrastructure projects, reduction in bureaucracy etc......(but of course cutting down lots of trees is much easier than trying to improve the living conditions for the Polish...what a shame....)

The difference with what is becoming a major forest tragedy (and an economical/political problem for Poland) is that any solution is not suited to computers, satellites, laptops or whatever.....when dealing with nature, you really need to listen to the people who know about nature, forests and how it is all finely tuned etc, because at present the experts seem to outnumber those who support logging.....the forest is a jewel for the Polish people and it is very easy to say


because it will be too late, the damage will have been permanently done...no amount of tree planting will support this 'natural' forest....it will look nice with new saplings but not to the habitat who rely on a natural forest.....it will be like selling the crown jewels...all gone...too late to reverse the long term damage....just to satisfy people who are willing to take down countless trees to make quick money and prepare their retirement fund.....

..yes I doubt if the whole forest will be wiped out, but the point which has already been made is that the illegal logging taking place daily is eroding and disturbing the habitat....it is not just about trees....but the trees are the answer to natural maintenance of this treasure.....

I work in forests, I'm a professional forest scientist at a major European institute. I spend weeks at a time in the Bialowieza Forest.


Yes they are. They are clear felling block of about 5 ha at a time. Everything cut, bare ground, then replanted with commercial saplings.


Dirk, I don't think you can know much about this forest, or Europe at all. It is the dead trees that are actually vitally important to the ecosystem. I've mentioned this to you already. In natural forests dead trees are normal, they are the foundation for the fungi and insects that support the wider ecosystem. The standing dead trees provide the nest sites for the 9 species of woodpecker that the forest supports - this is ALL of the woodpecker species in Europe, in one forest, because of the dead wood.

Yes, in managed forests the dead wood is often removed - which then destroys this basis of the ecosystem, which is why managed forests are poorer for biodiversity and natural forests are fantastic. Again, it is this which makes Bialowieza special.


You're talking like a choice has to be made to destroy the forest one way or another, so logging is the least worst evil. But that's complete BS, the only choice is whether to log the forest or to not log it. It is already supposed to be protected as a Natura 2000 site and listed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site. The status quo would be to do nothing and let it carry on being a natural forest. Not to decide which is the best way to make money from it (which, incidentally, is tourism).

maybe you haven't noticed but woodpeckers nest also in alive trees - I live in a forest and I have seen things

Szyszko cutting down trees?

And maybe you should look a little more. Only one species can typically excavate live wood. The others need dead trees or dead parts of living trees. Additionally, the two most important woodpeckers in the forest - the Three-toed and White-backed, are both deadwood specialisst for feeding. Three-toed especially requires dead spruce, where it forages for beetle larvae.

Any come back on that, Mr Limited Knowledge? This stuff is my bread and butter.

i dont see whats so hard to understand about the old growth forest. there are loads of forests in poland but only bialowieza is generally untouched by humans thats why it's always been special, thats why people want to see it. even logging it sparingly for whatever reason messes up the whole thing. not "getting" this seems ridiculously thick.

Problem is that we have outsmarted ourselves and think we can manage nature better then the Creator of it can which has had end results of disaster after disaster.

it was logged before up until 2012 or 2013 when logging limits were greatly reduced (but some logging continued) - the limits were low enough for the foresters to not be able to stop the spread of the spruce bark beetle though


the area where i live is a commercial forest with just a couple of reserves - and logging has been going on here since I can remember - I haven't noticed any sharp increase if you ask me during the time of Szyszko

All he cares about is what PiS tells him to care about. They haven't told him to worry about Białowieża so he'll give them the benefit of a doubt until it's all pure commercial forest with no tourist or cultural value.

@Braveheart16


First off, I'm not giving up on anything. You guys act as if the entire forest is slated for destruction when that's the furthest from the truth. The logging is limited to an area of about 78 km sq.... out of a forest size of over 3,000 km sq.... That's .026% of the forest. You act as if the entire forest is somehow in sudden danger despite the numerical fact that logging is limited to less than 1% of it.

Second, in 2015 the Regional Directorate of Forest Service developed the Annex which increased the harvest limit to 260k m3 up until 2021. In Feb 2017, the Regional Directorate for Environmental Conservation, which manages Natura 2000 sites, issued a proposal to the Annex. to limit the harvest to 188k m3. The 188k m3 is what was agreed to and is far less than the original 260k that was put in the Annex 2 years ago.

Third, parts of the forest will remain untouched and preserved - mos.gov.pl/aktualnosci/szczegoly/news/program-dzialan-na-rzecz-puszczy-bialowieskiej-podpisany/

Druga część to program badawczo-monitoringowy, finansowany przez Lasy Państwowe. Jednym z jego założeń jest wyznaczenie 1/3 terenu puszczańskich nadleśnictw , które będą pozostawione bez jakiejkolwiek ingerencji człowieka.

Fourth, many people rely on the forest for money - especially those in the NE which is far poorer than the rest of Poland. A lot of people in Poland still cut down trees to have firewood. Sorry but I don't buy that a tree (unless it is in fact fully protected - Bialowieza has areas that are under very strict UNESCO protection while others are only under some minor UNESCO protection as there are varying degrees of what can and can't be done in a USECO site and what parts of it ) shouldn't be cut down to provide heat and money for people. I'm not saying to destroy everything - like I said it has to be done with moderation and reason. Cutting down less than 1% of a forest seems reasonable.

"There is not a single part of this forest that hasn't been touched by a human hand," Grzegorz Bielecki, one of the managers of the forest, said in an interview.

No, no, no. You really need to read up on this. The new management plan divides the forest into 3 roughly equal parts - two of these are scheduled for intense logging, and de facto conversion to commercial plantation. One third is listed as low intervention.

The logging quota was actually 63,000 m3 over 10 years that was agreed in 2011 (to run until 2021). This was increased to 188,000 m3 in 2015, soon after PiS came to power. PiS originally proposed to log 360,000 m3 from 2015, but this was never implemented, so they just settled for a TRIPLING of the previous quota to 188,000 until 2021. That is because they had already exhausted their original 2011-2021 quota of 63,000 by 2015, so Szyszko simply tripled it to 188k to give them more and help out his friends in the State Forests logging operations. They conveniently used the bark beetle as an excuse to push this through and hoodwink people like you.

Here the numbers and dates for you: euobserver.com/environment/133877


Yes, but that still leaves 2/3 that will be transformed in structure and composition. As already pointed out to you, many of the important species in Bialowieza require lost of space of old growth forest to maintain viable populations. Increased logging in 2/3 of the forest threatens their regional populations.

Well, he bloody well would do, wouldn't he?! But nobody is disputing that - every inch of Earth has been touched, but just because there's Indians in the Amazon it doesn't mean we should be happy with it being logged.

The point is not WHETHER people have touched the foret, but by HOW MUCH. Bialowieza is not pristine, but it the LEAST TRANSFORMED, BEST PRESERVED of the European virgin forest, by a very long way. That is why it is valuable. Is that so difficult to understand?

Apparently it's difficult for you guys to understand that less than 1% of the forest has been approved for logging -

Publication against logging by numerous PhD's
polishwolf.org.pl/bialowieza-forest

Here are some key excerpts:


The forest already was in 3 equal parts...

For all three forest districts in PBF the forest management plans (FMP) for 2012-2021 have been accepted by the Minister of Environment in 2012.


polishwolf.org.pl/news,1153

That number was reduced by Szyszko to 188,000 m3....

The new area of logging in the Bialowieza Forest District includes 78 km2 -

78 km 2 is less than .026% of bialowieza.... plain and simple...

sorry but when less than 1% of a forest is going to be logged it's very difficult for me to see how suddenly the whole forest is now in danger...

This has been a long battle of NGOs and such wanting to expand protection to the entire forest. First it was 47 km2, then 105 km2 in 1995 with a logging on old trees which is fine - no issues. Then in 2014 it becomes 1418.85 km2 with a buffer zone of 1667.08 km2.... We're talking about 78km2 added to the logging... nothing of significance.. again, less than 1% of the forest

From UNESCO:


whc.unesco.org/en/decisions/6097

It should be preserved,

We should never forget that all experts, all independent environmental agencies, all credible authorities have condemned the PiS attack on the forest..

Read again. The State Forests (under Szyszko's direct control - he's the boss) developed the new Annex in 2015, AFTER Szyszko came to office, so under his watch. That is when 260,000 m3 was first proposed. Szyszko then revised down his own plans to 188,000, which is still 3x higher than the 63,000 that it was when he came into office, So don't suggest he's doing us a favour by first proposing to increase the logging by 5x but then *only* finally implementing a 3x increase. It is still 3x greater than when he came into office.


You're having basic trouble with numbers, you're dividing 78 km2 by 3000 HECTARES. The Polish area of the forest is 630 **km2**, as stated in the link you give. So 78 km2 is 12% of 630 km2, not 0.026%.

That means there will be logging of 12% of the forest in just a decade. That's more than 1 in 10 trees cut down in the lifetime of a bogatka. That is very, very rapid destruction.