Right after Pan and Pani, the phrase I got to dislike intensely before I left for good was "to nie wypada" (it's not proper). The list was endless.
Maybe things have changed since I left. Anyway, I left with that list in my head, shyness, and that Polish respect for any bloody stranger one day older than me.
After a year in the US, I realized that it was time for a change.
This is how I met my wife. I am at a party and noticed her sitting alone. I sat down next to her and asked for her phone number (nie wypada #1). Just like that. I figured, that the worst will be I would rather not. Instead, she said, I am married. At that point I should have said, sorry, and walk away or at least change the subject. I didn't (nie wypada #2). Facing a defeat, I told her that I don't care if she is married (nie wypada #3). She: this is my husband over there. Me: I have no interest in your husband (nie wypada #4). So, can I have your number? (nie wypada #5).
She gave me her work number and I chiselled it my brain like I did my ss number, as I had no pen and paper. I called her next day at work and asked to have a date with me. On that date, I found out that she already had filed for divorce. That was in the summer of 1969. Still married.
Honestly it never bothered me that much till like the later part of my 20s when people started calling me pan. Now i ******* hate it.
I remember flirting with some girl working at like a high end sunglass store in the mall and we were chatting having fun she was telling me.about places she likes to go. Right as I was about to ask her number her manager walks over, some old menopausal hag walks over and the girl switches to being professional and says czy pan by chcial jakies inne pary zobaczyc or some ****. As soon as she called me pan I lost it... she totally killed it...
Almost makes me not want to move to poland just for that. Occassionaly if its a young pretty girl ill say something like 'pan? I'm probably the same age as you, you wouldn't want me calling you pani and feel all old would you? They usually smile and laugh. My accent gives away that I'm Polonia.
What would have preferred, Rich, that they call you "***hole??!
Come on, man! Give 'em a bleedin' break already, will you? In order to work with Poles, for that matter any group other than one's own, you must try to accept (if not practice) their culture and respect their rituals. Cuts both ways, right? When Poles come to the US, one expects that they will adapt our infinitely more informal ways, and NOT say "Mr. Rich!", or necessarily feel they have to automatically kiss a strange lady's hand when introduced, feel as though they know it all etc..
Likewise in Poland, a degree of ritual formality is usually appropriate and being too immodest drives most Poles nuts as butt-kissing and disingenuous.
to automatically kiss a strange lady's hand when introduced
That honestly doesn't happen anymore. The only time it happens is amongst the much older generations and usually people they know rather than strangers. Like an old family friend will kiss the hand of say his friends' wife. Nonetheless its very rare I've seen that occur like once or twice in Poland.
they have to automatically kiss a strange lady's hand when introduced
For once I agree with dirk, the hand kissing thing is definitely one of those things that people talk about far more than they actually do. I've only seen it a handful of times in real life (and that's being generous) and I doubt if the man was younger than 60 or so each time.
If anything I think it's a bit more likely to happen among politicians though they tend to do it wrong - dragging the lady's hand up to their pie holes rather than bending at the waist to lower their head toward the hand (and of course the lips shouldn't actually touch than hand either but stop a centimeter or so short)
necessarily feel they have to automatically kiss a strange lady's hand when introduced,
hmm.....are you talking about yourself ? That is a thing of the past, it was carried over by some people as a default from the pre-war era. It mostly passing away with the children of the pre-war generation.
Another reason why I will not visit Poland is that Poland, just as the US and the rest of the world, became a smartphone zombieland.
Warsaw is barely passable as a tourist attraction, but for the Old Town. I can take churches, banks, and hotels as places worth seeing only for so long. Palac Kultury, surrounded by glass and metal, is hideous. Alone, it was a landmark.
To me, the only reason to spend money and suffer the flight are the people I will see and meet at the destination - if only for a ten-minute talk I usually start with "so, how is life here".
It's my experience that people respond to this opening very well. In many situations I had to excuse myself to terminate the encounter. Listening is hard and rare, and people appreciate it.
The universal problem everywhere is that smartphones killed this form of interaction. Everybody is on it, oblivious to the rest of the world. Only the third world war would get them out of that smartphone stupor, and only if it's nuclear.
Without the smartphone, eye contact is more likely. The body language easily shows if the person is open to a chat. Yesterday, I was again at the Rivers Casino waiting for my wife while she was "gaming". In the waiting room there were five people: every single one was molesting a smartphone. This in itself was still not the worst of it. The problem was that they were together as a group and still bored to death.
Just in case I failed to be clear enough, a summary: I will not go through the effort to watch foreign phone addicts. I can do it for free here.
Nonetheless, a truly delightful custom I encountered when first in Poland, and was touched to see men of any economic station, be they a construction worker or an aristocrat get up or if standing gently take the woman's hand and raise it to his lips (not really kissing it, of course) muttering the words "Caluje Pani raczki!".
The seventy-five year-old father (a semi-literate retired lathe operator) of my Polish colleague recently met my wife and at the end of the luncheon before they were both about to leave, Viktor took my wife's hand and went through the usual ritual. My wife was enchanted!
Oh, I know the Viennese have the same ablution, only the difference between "Kuess d' Hand, gnae' Frau!" and the Polish as well as the Hungarian "Csokolom!", is that the Poles mean it:-)
Pity such traditions are going the way of holding a door for a woman and various other civilities.
Kissing a woman on the hand is really old fashioned. Some men do it on a special occasion like meeting your future mother-in-law. You don't see it on everyday basis. Całuję rączki is even more old fashioned.
Polish men open the door for women, they let them in first, quite often help with the coat etc. It's done automatically and naturally. It's part of good manners. There are probably some crazy feminists and some aggressive chauvinists who disapprove of it - luckily not among people close to me.
Hand kissing is old fashioned, though. Men usually shake hands or nod their head when introduced to women. As for guys only they often shake hands every time they meet.
And no, I don't consider people in their seventies semi-literate. I'm quite surprised to hear about one.
I think it is all on how you have been brought up. Very seldom does a woman open a door for me but when they do I always say thank you. And yes, it seems that Polish men do respect women more then other nationalities.
men of any economic station, be they a construction worker.... muttering the words "Caluje Pani raczki!".
yeah...... that never happens.
standing gently take the woman's hand and raise it to his lips
Again.... that's wrong, he's supposed to bend at the waist and lower his head toward her hand, yanking the lady's hand around is definitely bad manners....
It's had a bit of a revival in South-East England (the wealthy bit) after the Polish 2004 influx. A significant number of men are working as builders, and quickly found that kissing the hand of an English lady who'd never had her hand kissed before means she's so charmed that she forgets how to negotiate a price!
I don't mutter. I never kissed anyone other than my gf's and my wife. "Pani" is not in my vocabulary anymore. "Raczki" is so Polish and so infantile it's embarrassing. If an adult woman has "raczki", what does a two-year-old girl have? Raczuchny? Luckily, English is free of this kind of verbal insanity.
BTW, I wonder if it occured to any of those "gentlemen" that by kissing a woman's hand, they were kissing the saliva from all the guys who kissed that hand before. In a country with marginal personal hygene, there may be more on that hand than saliva.
Be that all as it may, it certainly does happen, as I was there on said occasion. Rare perhaps, though not impossible:-) Why would I lie?? Because it's beyond some of our experience, scarcely means that it's a fiction!
@kaprys, the dude worked as a 'tokarz' in a factory for forty-odd years! Surely he didn't have the literacy of a professor.
they were kissing the saliva from all the guys who kissed that hand before
anyone who's not a sad old fraud and a troll knows that when a gentleman 'kisses' a lady's hand the lips do not actually meet flesh.
Again, you've already been told. Leave here and don't come back you silly, useless, tiresome fraud before someone contacts the real person whose identity you've stolen.
before someone contacts the real person whose identity you've stolen.
Like last time you mean when he almost got sued for copyright infringements for using Marino's pictures. When I take a lady's hand I always hold her hand so my thumb is on the upside and kiss my thumb. Most ladies prefer that method.
Don't forget pulling out a chair for a lady also. or offering your seat on say a train, tram, bus, etc to a woman also, back in the day it would be normal for an older lady to have a man help her across the street. even when I was a kid i'd see that. now though an old lady
Personally, I'll do that for close friends, seniors/handicapped people for whom opening a door is actually a challenge.
As far as the younger generations, since many of them demand to be treated the same way as men, I prefer for girls to hold the door open for me - especially the car door.
@Lyzko Just because someone is a labourer or doesn't have a degree doesn't mean they're semi-literate. For goodness sake ...
@Dirk diggler Honestly? I have never seen a woman hold the car door for a guy unless he's elderly or handicapped. Or he's holding something so he can't open the door.
As for holding the door in general there are diffferent social rules. For example, people that go out go first regardless of their sex. As for offering the seat on the bus/tram, it's usually offered to the elderly, people with children etc.
As I met the gentleman, and you didn't, I will be the judge of his literacy (or lack thereof).
The point I was making was that many Americans mistake the hand kiss for some type of upper-crust ritual, much as in olden France, for example.
What I continue to find so lovely and charming about the Polish hand kiss, is that it's both multi-generational as well as not dependent on one's social status.
I could scarcely imagine the equivalent Anglo-Saxon engaging in such a practice, save for the Royal Court or some such nonsense.
Of course I'm kidding. Nonetheless with all the feminazis clamoring to be treated just like men perhaps someday they'll be holding doors open for us dudes.
