Top Warsaw university recommends remedial classes to new students

My son managed to turn things around at school at the very last moment and put in a creditable performance for his matura exams. Cause for huge relief and much nervous laughter - we can't really believe he did it after all those years of underperformance and just scraping through. Anyway. Yesterday, he went to register at a top Warsaw university and all students were presented by the university with offers of remedial classes.

This fits in with what professor friends of mine at another 2 top Warsaw institutes have told me over the last 2 years - even students with good grades at matura are simply not good enough for university level studies. Maths and physics are areas of particular worry, as Warsaw Technical University (the Poly!) for example has huge drop-out rates on some courses.

One of the causes is the structure of schooling: 6 years of primary school, 3 years of middle school, 3 years of high school (grammar school).
Primary school is OK, by and large, though things could be improved.

Middle school is an undiluted disaster zone - institutionalized under-achievement and time wasting. And all classes are held back by drongos, who spend their time misbehaving and repeating anything negative the media has said recently - Biblical references in Polish (the school subject, I mean) often end up with some twat in the back row prattling on about paedophiles and fascists. Palikot has been brilliant at disrupting schools. And almost no-one is ever held down a year, because the school wants the bad kids out as soon as possible!

High school has the educational aspirations of its previous 4-year course, but the 1st year high school class is by definition mixed-ability and hence slow-moving, 2nd year is a mad dash and 3rd year (which should be largely devoted to revision) introduces new material almost to the end. To cap it all, well-meaning politicians have added extra courses to turn students into "better citizens" - knowledge of culture, knowledge of society, preparation for family life, entrepreneurialism ...

The only way to do well is to hire good quality tutors, but most parents of my generation don't understand this vital point until it's too late - because in our generation the school books were better-written and the kids could succeed by doing what the teacher in class said. And the real failures were punished by repeating a year or getting kicked out. Now, you can only get kept down or kicked out at high school - after the damage has been done (and mostly to everyone around the bad kid).

Politicians need to wake up the real issues. We need good books, an end to middle schools and a return to underperformers repeating years. Lying to everyone until it's too late in their educational career isn't liberalism, it's stupidity. And the top performers end up needing remedial classes before starting university!

If you think the above, then answer me this, why are the matura exams widely regarded as becoming easier and easier year on year?

Er, why the fcuk is precious classroom time being wasted on that subject? If parents want their kids to be indoctrinated with religion, they can send the poor sods to Sunday school.

Oooh, my favourite subject!


This is caused by the universities refusing to change with the times. The Polish education system since the reform has been getting better and better - but the universities are still stuck in an outdated system that rewards rote learning and punishes those who are taught to think for themselves (which the new system in school does). Therefore, universities - instead of changing - are whining about the level of students. Yes, the level in terms of pure rote learning is lower - but the students are better. But the dinosaurs stuck in our public university system refuse to accept this.

It would be nice if you explained that in Poland, universities work on a points-based system. Anyone with a Matura can apply, and the top x candidates who applied are given a place regardless of their actual score. This means that subjects such as mathematics and physics have low entry scores - as can be seen here - amuland.pl/Portal/Progi-punktowe/DL-FizO-2012 (physics from UAM) 33 points is incredibly poor - which reflects the quality of the candidates applying to physics.

So the huge drop-out rates are entirely understandable - you've got poor quality candidates applying to difficult courses. No-one really wants to do mathematics and physics, so you end up with a situation where the university is refusing to adapt the courses to reflect the strength of students. Hence - high drop out rates.


No, that structure actually works very well. If you look at the PISA scores since the reform, things have got drastically better - especially as children are no longer stuck in primary school (and being treated like it) at the difficult and awkward 13-16 age. The best high schools are doing even better now - the real issue is the failure to invest in a proper wide range of choices post-16. But on the whole, the reform has worked. Going back to 8-4 is nothing but PiS hype because of who implemented the policy in the first place.


They are a problem because of the Polish 'right to an education'. Were schools to be allowed to discipline children effectively, problems would dramatically reduce. Trying to blame Palikot is yet more PiS talk - wouldn't it be better to consider that children at this age are difficult in general and that schools should be empowered to deal with them? It also doesn't help that most Polish people find the idea of streaming children to be abhorrent - so you end up with the local village idiot ruining classes because he doesn't understand the content. The culture is to blame here, not the school.


All classes are mixed ability, but you've again forgotten to mention that high schools are streamed by nature. There is no right (as in middle and primary schools) to an education at your local school - hence children are all roughly the same level as it's based on the results of the middle school exam. Why should 3rd year be based on revision? That's pretty senseless - I don't know any country that spends the last year revising!


There's no reason to hire tutors. The books themselves are generally of a high quality due to the peer review process required, but again, the utter failure to implement a proper disciplinary process combined with the sheer lunacy of requiring directors to be elected causes discipline to be a problem in public schools. This - again - is cultural. If you actually worked in a public Polish school, you'd know that teachers hands are tied by the parents - many of whom cannot imagine their child being kept in detention or being suspended.


No, the real issue is the expectations of universities, the lack of professionalism in school management (directors are always thinking about the next election) and the lack of effective discipline brought on by parental expectations.

Nice try, but your post just reads like PiS-propaganda.

(and we all know that the dinosaurs that teach in universities are about 30-40 years behind)

Woah, school headmasters/mistresses are elected?
WTF kind of BS system is that?
Why?
I'm dumbfounded here.
*drops jaw

Oh yes. At least where I am, the votes go like this :

3 votes from the council
3 votes from the local education authority
1 vote from the teachers council
1 vote from the parents council

You don't need to be a genius to figure out who wins...

But in this case aren't the universities correct ? if it's maths skills that are the issue then is a correct thing for them to pick up on - its not rote learning.

My anecdotal view as an employer is that language skills getting way better but maths skills of Polish graduates are shocking (even if the graduates come from a maths/economic background). Not sure if the UK graduates have better maths skills but for sure American ones do.

Well, the problem is that the people applying to do Maths are quite crap at Maths in general - a score of 30 is utterly pathetic by any standards. For me, it's complete madness that a tough course such as physics/mathematics can be entered by almost anyone - not least because it leads to many people dropping out. It was also pointed out to me that people are re-taking the Matura and dropping out as a consequence of getting into a better course.

I cannot understand for the life of me why public universities don't have a minimum score requirement for entry into university. Allowing Pawel who barely scraped through mathematics at Matura into a course that is about Mathematics is nothing but insanity. Looking now at the rankings - someone who nailed Polish and a foreign language combined with basic level Mathematics at Matura should have enough points to get into the course. Utter nonsense, I'm sure you'll agree.


I think the subject as a whole needs to be looked at, as well as the culture. It seems that in recent times, there has been a heavy push for people to go into 'humanities' subjects at the expense of science - and I think it doesn't help that mathematics was treated very badly for the last few years in high schools. It's also worth pointing out that many mathematics teachers are graduates of mathematics that couldn't find a job afterwards - so they went into teaching because they had nothing else to do.

I don't know why Delphi keeps on thinking I support PiS. I don't and my post has nothing to do with them whatsoever. You might also note that I don't say anything about Pis or PO at all - I just make mention about Palikot because, in real-life schools, the thicker kids gravitate towards his ideas and latch onto them to inform their disruption tactics. So, Delphi, a bit of a dumbo remark from you there. Again.

First off: the schoolbooks suck - I'm talking from a teacher-using-the-book point of view ... which you can only get if you're a teacher! Anyone who tells you differently is a liar.

Middle school - only introduced because the Germans introduced it. In short it was a fad. The CDU voted in their party conference last year to get rid of it because they regarded it as a failure, so hopefully it will slowly disappear after the next German elections.

Repeating a year at school. If a teacher fails a child, the teacher has to teach that child over the summer so he can sit "re-take exams". Think about that one from a teacher's point of view. Also, schools want to get rid of troublesome children - failures are seldom due to lack of ability. So, what we have here is a systemic failure on the part of the whole education system, not the individual schools themselves.

The points you need to get onto a physics course at Warsaw Technical University are weighted - meaning that you need to get very high marks in your physics exam at matura to get on the physics course! D'oh Delphi - back to the drawing board for you on that one. The problem is that people scoring high levels in physics at matura level are dropping out of physics and related science courses because they have not had enough time to study physics to a high enough level at school. This is mainly because it only really gets going at high school - so the student has only 3 years to acquire a whole array of skills and knowledge. Taught at a gallop, far too many students fail to attain the level needed by universities. Vital time is wasted due to middle schools existing. Vital time is also wasted on additional courses (WOK, WOS etc).

Mixed ability - once again Delphi misses the point. To get into high school (and courses are 'profiled' by subject choice) there is a certain amount of uniformity built in by the mere fact of having to achieve the required number of points at middle school (external exams + teacher-given marks + academic competitions + sporting achievements + voluntary work). This does NOT mean that kids from 10 different schools will have covered the same things in, say, maths. This causes havoc in the classroom - which eventually calms down towards the end of the first year.

3rd year. It's VERY short, finishing effectively in April. Knowledge and skills are nothing without exam practice. Takes a teacher to know that, though! Mock exams at Christmas give some indication of weaknesses but little time to correct them, as new content is still being introduced.

I do agree with Delphi's point on the limited investment in range of choices post-16. Hurrah! Parents - hmm. Try to find teachers anywhere in the world who are entirely happy with parents. They are a problem, but not an unsurmountable one.

High schools and universities have high expectations - I don't recognise Delpi's comments to the opposite as having any real basis in fact. Some high schools accept lower ability kids - but that doesn't mean lower expectations. Middle schools are screwed by the system - and 3 vital years are wasted. Dross in every class, destroying educational opportunity knowing they are untouchable.

Harry - what an amusing ignoramus he is sometimes! He thinks you can study Polish literature without Biblical references. Mind you, dimmer parents say the same thing because they too have no idea.

Good for you.

Could it be that you spout utter rubbish in precisely the same manner as the average PiS supporter? I wonder.


So you're a teacher, are you? I somehow doubt that.
However, my Mrs is a teacher, and she's been one for the best part of two decades: her assessment is the exact opposite of yours and she says that the things are getting better. Sorry that this doesn't fit in with your strangely PiS-like views.


No they don't; try speaking to a teacher sometime.


My step-daughter hasn't done any bible study since she was 12: she just flew through both matura levels of Polish.

Anyway, do please feel most free to carry on trying to cover up your utter ignorance and bigotry with lies and insults: both of those from you are always good for a laugh.

You certainly do support PiS, as your previous posts make very clear. The things you talk about in your post (criticising books, schools and educational system) is also a core part of the PiS platform. See, being interested in education, I tend to keep track of what people say in politics - and what you say is straight from PiS.

Oh dear. Palikot doesn't get support from "thick kids" - he gets support from people who are intelligent. You might regard his supporters as thick (like all PiS supporters) - but the reality is that Ruch Palikota's support comes mainly from the educated youth of Poland that were disenfranchised for many years. Common PiS talk however - people with primary school education insulting the educated.


Oh please. Anyone can get the teachers books - they can be bought through any good bookshop. As for the methodology of the books - any good Polish teacher will tell you that you must teach to the programme, not to the book. Only a poor, poor teacher would ever consider the 'book' as being the programme in Poland. I've had a quick look at my programme (written by a wonderful lady in Torun, actually) - and it's clear that following the book alone is not good enough.


It's working in Poland, not least because it addresses what was one of the huge concerns under the 8-4 system - children are being written off in primary school and then don't have a chance to sort themselves out in a new environment. Yes, it's not perfect, and I'd rather just see 6 year high schools - but it works.


The teacher doesn't have to teach the child at all - for a start, teachers are only (theoretically) paid for their attendance in school and nothing else. No teacher is going to give up holidays for free to teach a child - if they do, it's their own personal choice to do so. What you're alluding to is a failure to discipline children correctly, particularly due to the 'right to an education' nonsense.


Oh really? Would that be why (according to the Politechnika Warszawska website) physics only required 102 points on their scale, compared to scores closer to 200 for more attractive subjects? As you're well aware, Polish universities allow anyone who passed their Matura to apply - so if the minimum score for entry was 102, it means that it converts roughly into an average of 50% at Matura. In other words - the students are crap.


No, they're dropping out because -

a) They resat their Matura, got a better score and got into a course that was less of an unemployment factory
b) They were going to study physics despite getting a poor physics grade
c) The expectations of the universities are out of sync with what's being taught in school (common)


How is WOS a waste of time? So many people don't even know the basics about the relationship between the EU and Poland - leading to nonsense that they believe in rags like Gazeta Polska.


But they will have covered the same things because the programme is broadly similar, combined with a standardised exam in Mathematics at the end of middle school. The lack of cooperation between middle and high schools is lamentable, however - and causes the situation that the high school teachers expect the middle school kids to be able to do things that they can't do.


Good high schools have high expectations - yes. The points required to get into the best three high schools here are huge - there is somewhat immense competition for such places, not least because private schools are doing a dreadful job in many cases. But universities are a different story - shall I give some examples? I'll use Adam Mickiewicz for this because it's what I'm familiar with -

amuland.pl/Portal/Progi-punktowe - all scores out of 100

Law - amuland.pl/Portal/Progi-punktowe/DM-Prawo-2012 - 71.60 points required for entry.
Norwegian - amuland.pl/Portal/Progi-punktowe/DL-NorwA-2013 - 91.40 points required for entry
Psychology - amuland.pl/Portal/Progi-punktowe/DM-PSYCH-2012 - 60.60 points required for entry

All fine and well, and shows that UAM is one of the better universities in the country. But.

Physics - amuland.pl/Portal/Progi-punktowe/DL-FizO-2012 - 33.30 points required for entry
Biological Chemistry - amuland.pl/Portal/Progi-punktowe/DL-CHB-2012 - 26.40 points required for entry
Europeistyka - amuland.pl/Portal/Progi-punktowe/DL-EUR-2012 - 11.55 points required for entry

Hence - universities do not have high standards as a rule, but rather they work solely on the basis of who applies for the courses. For me, it is sheer madness that anyone would be allowed to study physics with a score that suggests somewhere around 45% at Matura.

I'm not sourcing any of my information from PiS!! I have no idea what they are saying as I don't watch TV news or read your rags.

I'm sourcing it all from teachers and professors - who according to you have no idea about schools, universities or education in general!! I'm in a family of teachers and work with academics, so I'm bound to get all my info from politicians, aren't I? D'oh! Keep proving your points why don't you ...?

Funny how you're saying the exact opposite of the teacher that I know best.


Either they're telling you porkie pies (for example not wanting to fail students because that means they have to teach the kid over the summer) or you are telling us porkies. I wonder which it might be.

So why is it that your information just so coincidentally happens to be lifted straight from the PiS manifesto on education?

What a strange little coincidence, especially after all your previous posts full of sly digs at Michnik, Tusk et al.


Please stop pretending that your views are anything other than straight from the pages of the PiS manifesto.


Very odd that his views happen to coincide with what PiS have been saying, isn't it? It's even stranger that his views are at odds with teachers.

I just double checked, and while teachers need to give them a re-sit exam at the end of summer, there's no obligation for them to teach anyone during summer, not least because they're not paid to do so. Teachers in Poland are theoretically paid per hour - so they don't have any duty to teach anything beyond what they're contractually obliged to do.

What is it with PiS supporters and lying?

Take a look at your previous threads. The Great Leader is speaking through them at every moment.

Ha ha ha!

sobieski, harry, delphiandomine
Why the hell are you talking about PiS ? Is it just me, or have you got a complete lack of points to make, forcing you to keep on shouting accusations instead of discussing the matter ? That fails to impress me. Let's just leave Palikot, PO and PiS alone, so we don't hurt your obviously very sensitive feelings, and let's get to the point. I'm a student, and I have just managed to get into biotechnology at UW, and since I've been experiencing the educational system for real, unlike most of the "experts" on this forum shouting their slogans and feeling proud about it, I cannot say Varsovian was actually wrong. And since you're super sensitive to anyone getting anywhere near with their ideas to the horrid, He Who Must Not Be Named, PiS, I'll give an example of how your wonderful "high quality", "peer reviewed" have failed to tell me <properly> (that word's important) what "aparaty Golgiego" are, just to give an example. The book my liceum told me to get was "Biologia" by Operon (of course all the 3 parts). Let's have a look at your wonderful, "peer reviewed" definition of "aparaty Golgiego". In book no. 1 there is no definition of "aparaty Golgiego", it is just metioned, but hey - I know they exist ! Luckily I really wanted to get a good result from my Matura, so I started researching other books - luckily, I found a hidden (very difficult to find, not even highlighted!) defintion of it, which I thought would be enough - I was wrong. It said something like "pakuje, transportuje substancje" (something like that, those probably aren't the same words, but the most important thing was - it only said it does this, that, and the other, but it didn't tell me what "substancje" those were, and what use that is for the cell). Finally, after my Matura, I got back to biology, and I found just out of interest and old book at home - "Botanika" by "Alicja i Jerzy Szweykowski", printed in 1986 (apparently the bad years for Poland, so how could I possibly find anything there, since I couldn't find it now ?). Started reading and what do I see ?


The book, despite it's age, told me what use these are to the cell, what they "make", and also told me for the first time where the cell walls come from. None, I repeat none of your peer reviewed rubbish ever told me that. They all have the same "pakuje, transportuje substancje" good-for-nothing definition which would have a been another point lost at Matura, had it appeared this year (I was lucky). And that is a drop in the ocean. All the definitions are what Poles call "ogólniki", which don't actually say anything, there are things missing (for example the origin of cell walls, which I didn't know where they came from really, the contents must have been synthesised somewhere...), and are completely useless. I got 62% from biology, which isn't pretty good. But, I was saved by chemistry, which I was useless at until the last 3 months before Matura (I got korepetycje, surprise, surprise). I worked really hard at it, because I failed to find bio lessons, and I knew I was stuffed with biology, and guess what ? I got 78% from chemistry, and only had to sit on the 2nd rekrutacja for a few days and I got into the poly ! That was thanks to chemistry korepetycje. And if you don't need korepetycje in your lovely "peer reviewed" paradise, why do you think they set up e-korepetycje.net ?

The basic message is - you need koreptycje, if you want to achieve something, unless you're some sort of Einstein. And believe me, I'm not thick, I don't like to boast, but I am very talented with various things. I just needed teaching (that's what education is about, nobody can do it all by himself), and the books weren't going to help me with that.

P.S. If you experience a complete lack of point to make, you can start yelling "PiS supporter" at me too, just like you did with Varsovian, but I'll tell you one thing - I find PiS, as well I do PO, Palikot, and all the other idiots pathetic, and I don't support anybody in Poland, because they're all rubbish, despite the "educated Palikot voters" joke above (and no, don't start discussing about the greatness of your almighty Palikot). This is not an attack at your precious politicians, I am leaving them alone, because I don't want to get into any pointless discussions about how great idiots like Kaczyński, Tusk or Michnik (etc.) are, because you'll immediately start throwing pathetic accusations at me. Let's stick to the point

In other words, you discovered that in order to obtain the highest grades, you need to do extra reading outwith the proscribed material. That's what I'd expect from someone in the last year of high school.


That's because you didn't bother to read non-course materials. It's obvious that the Advanced Matura level requires considerable effort on your own part.


No, you don't. You could obtain the relevant documentation for the subject at Matura and base your own learning on it. If you want the top grades, that's exactly what you have to do. What do you think your private Chemistry teacher was doing?

So, wait, your wonderful, peer reviewed books aren't enough for Matura ? That's a sudden change of mind. And btw, I had good marks throughout the years, and people better than me at marks had much worse Matura results, and are hoping to get a better result next year. You may have good marks, but they won't be enough for Matura, because Matura is far beyond your peer reviewed books (don't quote me on this, you just aggreed the proposed books aren't enough, no second U-turn now).


Do you think I made no effort with chemistry ? Doing korepetycje alone is useless, even absolute dumbos know that. I put as much of my own effort into chemistry as I did into biology. In other words I bothered. And btw, if advanced matura requires effort, then doesn't the basic one too ? Sorry, get your facts right. You can't pass Matura without an effort. Everybody learns.

And btw, basing on what you've just said, Matura candidates, if they're serious, have got to find the right books to have the required knowledge. But isn't that the function of the educational system, to guide people the way ? In your mind no. You obviously have the "got used to dziadostwo, it's not that tough" mode, and have completely lost touch woith reality. Successive governments have failed on education, but that doesn't mean you have to be so blindly apologetic.


Yeah, why should a teacher care about <telling people what books to read> ? (that's what you said)


Sorry, you're saying she was basing my own learning on it ? :D
She used the same books as I already had, nice try, better luck next time. She did some explaining, because nobody in our class understood what our teacher was saying. And our chemistry teacher btw, was just as "proffesional" as you are, and she fed us the same rubbish about korepetycje. Guess what ? I had the 2nd best grade in our class at Matura ! The person who beat me to 1st also had korepetycje. A bit strange for an idiot who "didn't bother", isn't it ?

(Stop trying to tell me my life story, I know it better.)