I'm thinking to study in the Wrocław University of Science and Technology

Hello everybody,

I'm 17 years old who is highly interested in Computer Science, Math and Evolutionary Biology person that currently live in the Turkey. After I've finished high school here, I don't want to study university in the Turkey, I know that Anatolian culture can't teach me science and right now teaching evolution is under a ban they completely removed from the curriculum. :( There is no way I can live in the Turkey, because culturally it is unsuitable for me and as an atheist person they don't like atheists here that's why I won't be able to share my opinions. I don't know Polish society have an any idea about current government of Turkey ? But It's really shameful for that country which is founded by Atatürk. Ignorance ruling Turkish society for a long time and ignorance is an accepted norm in this society since 1950s..

I'm writing these things because you should understand my situation before making suggestions for me.

I don't have enough money to study in an Anglosphere country I can't afford that. I can pay yearly max. €3000-4000.

I've been making researchment about universities in the Poland for a long time and I've decided to prefer Wrocław University of Science and Technology because of the feedbacks, I want to study Computer Science in English. Any opinions about that university ?

After I got my CS degree, I want to move to the U.S. Before that I'll try to gain some experiences in Poland. So, is my degree will be worth in the U.S. ? I can get permanent residence in there via H-1B visa but for that I'll be needed employer.

Thanks.

Regards,

Your degree will not be fully transferable in the US (but not because you'd get a diploma from a Polish university - that's how the system works there). I'd expect you may be able to get up to 50-60% of 'courses' (the better the university, the less percentage - they want you to pay them as much as possible, that's why they are not willing to transfer many courses). Still, having 50% will save you about 1.5-2 years so it's not that you'd have to start from scratch.

To tell the truth I cannot advise you to study Computer Science in Poland. Although its a well-known college it will not give you anything in English. If you want to move to USA it could be better study your BA in Turkey.

Thank you for your suggestions for me. As I said before, I've some problems in the Turkey and also universities aren't good in here as you think. Actually there is one important thing for the Poland that you've forgotten and it is IT sector is better than Turkey in the Poland.

I heard hardware and software companies such as IBM, Intel, Google, Microsoft.. etc. have their offices in the Poland. You can find so many successful companies that based on video game industry such as: CD Projekt, Techland etc. Because of these reasons, studying Computer Science in Poland, makes sense for me.

@Whocares386

I'm from Wroclaw but live primarily in the US. It's a decent school from what I've heard. I don't know if they teach CS in English though or not. I only went to grade school the first few years as a really young child in Poland all my later education was in US. If you move to Poland it may be difficult for you to find work as you're completing your education especially as a non-Polish speaking Turk, unless you're okay with doing work like washing dishes or cleaning or something that doesn't really involve speaking Polish like other student type jobs (waiting tables, delivery, etc.)


The degree itself will be worthless in US. However, if you have certain certifications and know how to program, code, etc you'll still be able to get a decent job. A lot of tech companies at least in my experience are more concerned with ability and experience than degrees with their IT staff. My last job as well as my current one is in tech and the programmers and coders that are hired oftentimes don't have degrees. In fact, at both places the managers would tell me they'll get some dude from India, Pakistan, etc. who just recently obtained a CS degree but knows nothing in practice while on the other hand they'll get people who only have a high school education yet are excellent programmers, admins, etc.

I work in IT in Wroclaw. I don't know about the quality of the Politechnika Wroclawska, but with CS degree you will have no problem finding job in Wroclaw. After some years of experience no one (in US or elsewhere) will care where you got your degree. If you want to do a PhD in US, a degree from a top-ranked university in Turkey will open you more doors then a degree from Wroclaw.

Wrocław University of Science and Technology is top-ranked university for Poles. If you study in Polish yes its a good course but all courses are in english give you almost anything in Poland. You pay the tuition fee and they do not care what you learn.English courses are not the same level with Polish.You should not think that university will make you a skilled-person its important how you improve yourself. If I were you I could save money and go to US for my BA.

Thank you for your comment for me.

Yes, you're right, I've heard that many times IT field, depends on self-improvement. In these days, I'm trying to learn JavaScript after that I'll start with C languages because I want to be senior programmer on Microsoft side so that I should learn C# and .Net.


Thanks, that sounds great.

But I don't know Polish language, even though after graduation can I get jobs in Wroclaw with only English language ? Poland seems lovely country to me I don't know what do Polish society think about irreligious persons or immigrants but I respect every good human whatever their belief. :)


Thanks for warning.

I heard that and I'll improve myself on programming I'm a self-taught person but I I really want to have knowledge about theoretical computer science, figuring out data structures, algorithms, etc.. Isn't that possible in that courses are in English ? Can those professors teach me important concepts of computer science ?


That would be best for me but I can't afford to study in Anglosphere countries and I don't have so much time to save money to study in US. Also when I try to convert 1000 Turkish lira to the US dollars that gives me only $280-281 :( So it is really hard to study in US or in another Anglosphere country.

Yes it does but a degree doesn't hurt. IT is one of the fields where experience often trumps a piece of paper. Nonetheless, its good to have both especially since it'll help you negotiate salary - which can be very high for even a mildly experienced programmer. One of my friends is a programmer in his late 20's and makes around 120k a year. If you're planning on going to school I would definitely chose the US over Poland, and this is coming from a person who has citizenship in both. The majority of the people who are coming to Poland to study are coming from countries far poorer than Turkey and do it just to get a foot into the EU. Most will move to the UK/Germany/France/etc where wages are higher and where they'll fit into the more diverse societies.


Yes you can. In fact, there's a good chance you'll end up going to a school for free courtesy of US citizens like myself - especially if you're planning on studying a hard science like CS which is in great demand in the US. Or even write Chemistry as your intended major and switch once you get there. Hard science degrees are in huge demand and the US is willing to fund people who will study these. Milk your 'people of color' status for all you can. Why not? I would if I were Turkish. Get high scores on tests or if you're the athletic type focus on that (I know a dude who was an average student but got into Dartmouth because he was an excellent skier). If you want some more info I can explain the process. Get some more info on H-1B visas (I believe that's what they're called). I can probably help get you a paid internship or job at a tech company once you've started too as I've worked in this field for sometime now.

From experience, and what i've heard, University of Wroclaw is excellent and a degree from poland would land you in better places than if you were to continue in Turkey, especially the US, but im not sure about IT specifically. i'd say go for it. there are courses in english, the professors are brilliant and its just a good life in general in poland, even better and safer than the US nowadays.

good luck :)

That statement I would agree with 100%. The money isn't as good in Poland but the quality of life is excellent. Although IT is generally one of the hottest, highest paying careers for young people in PL... and US too. IMO I'd still do my education in the US, save up some money, then move to PL but it's up to you whocares

A degree from a course taught in Polish at a top university in Poland, maybe.

However, a degree from a course taught in English even at a top university in Poland is worse than a course taught in Turkish at a good university in Turkey.

The quality of courses taught in English at Polish universities is rather low, and they do not have a good reputation.

To be honest, I'm not a person that consistently getting high scores and I am not good at any sport, personally I don't like sport. I'm a hardworking person but I just don't get high scores on math, probably I'm average one and I know math is really important for me and in these days I'm trying improve myself on the math because I believe IT is one of the fields that based on math and analytical problem solving.

I don't know did you study Computer Science but if so, what would you suggest me about math ? I'm in the high school now (12th grade) and I don't know Calculus (in the Turkey, they don't teach in the high school) so do I need to learn Calculus right now ? Or will I start to learn in the university ?

I don't know how to attend university in the US with no tuition fees as an average person. Probably, H-1B visa is seems best way for me to get the US.


Thank you for your precious comment for me :)


That's a good thing for me but as I said before I don't know Polish language, even though after graduation can I get jobs in Wroclaw with only English language ? I'm talking about IT industry.

Also I don't have any idea about internship in Poland without Polish language. After I've graduated from university, can I apply for internship in Poland ? Any ideas ?


I don't think universities which are courses taught in English as bad as you're saying because some other people saying they've average education. Of course I don't expect top university level.

Thanks for your post.

First of all you need to be clear about the difference between programming and computer science. Programming is merely a discipline within computer science and you can learn to program with minimal mathematical knowledge. However as times goes on you will need to be able to understand the maths that underpins the programming languages you use and you will need to be able to write your own algorithms.

You don't need to be especially good at maths to enrol on a computer science degree. Your high school maths will be enough to begin with. You will do the absolutely necessary basics of the more advanced stuff when you get to college and will do calculus in your first year. Depending on the college you go to you may be able to take a degree in software development as opposed to computer science, which would cut down a lot on the maths. At your stage it would be better to focus on learning a programming language really well than worrying about maths.

I suggest you join the stackoverflow.com forum for programmers. It's a great community for both amateur and professional developers and it's an invaluable source of advice and help for young programmers starting out as you have guys with years of programming experience who will advise you :)

Same. I played volleyball and basketball back in grade school and high school but I wasn't very good. It was mainly just bc I was taller than everyone else till I hit like soph/junior year and the other guys started catching up lol. I don't ever really watch sports though. I've been more a 'mathlete' than an 'athlete' but I still weight lift for exercise. Even if your not good in sports I would recommend even doing something like track and field to be in shape and in the US people are obsessed with sports so it helps make you look like a well rounded person


There's many foreigners in Wroclaw working in IT. The amount of Poles is higher but nonetheless there's a large community of people from India, Pakistan, Italy, Portugal, etc. working for various corporations. This is a bit of a generalization but from what I've seen the Indian/Paki guys tend to work in IT, the Spaniards, Italians, and Portuguese tend to work in finance, banking, accounting, etc. The UK/US native English speakers often hold mid level managerial positions and report back to HQ for direction. There's also a lot of young people working in customer service esp if they have a foreign language skill. You can use your knowledge of Turkish and English to land such a job while you're in school.

A lot of Poles have switched careers to go into IT because it pays a lot better than comparable jobs. There's a smaller company that basically trains individuals on programming/coding for like 4-6 months or however long it lasts and at the end they place you in a 10k zloty a month job which is a very high wage for PL when most people are making like 3k-6k zloty (depending on job, city, etc). However I believe that this particular company only hires poles to train but they may be willing to hire a person who speaks fluent English.

I have no doubts that you'd get a good job once you have enough experience and learned a particular discipline. Unless you have another stream of money to pay for schooling, rent, living expenses, etc it may be difficult for you to find a sort of job that students typically work while going to school.

Honestly, I would still highly recommend you expand your search outside of Poland. If I were in your shoes I would study in the US because there's so many programs that welcome people from abroad and there's a very good chance that you'll go to school for free simply for being an English speaking Turk. There's one such program called like 'diversity immigrants' that you can easily get in as long as you're a high school graduate and have a basic understanding of English. You can search for it - website will end in .gov. Plus, you'd make way more money while you're going to school and it'd be far easier to get a student type job than in PL without knowing the language.

Also, IMO internships especially unpaid are worthless. I never had an internship while in college and I never had an issue finding work. Honestly even the friends who have had internships or didn't I didn't see any significant difference in their career prospects upon graduating. It may be different in PL but imo I'd avoid any sort of unpaid internships.

Thank you for your help :) It sounds great but nevertheless I'll improve myself on the math because math is something that I really enjoy with it. Of course my main focus will be programming, I'll start my own projects as soon as I've enough knowledge about JS. Then I can start with C languages. Also I'll visit stackoverflow.com forum it may be useful site for me.


Yes, I know that Diversity Visa Lottery program and I've been waiting for a long time to get my high school degree, after that I'll apply for that program. I don't know how they choose their candidates but maybe if I have a chance, I can be a green card holder and I can easily attend university in the U.S with this program. But if they don't choose me I can try my chance again and if still nothing happens.. Then studying in the Poland will be my next objective.

Also I've heard, that Diversity Visa Lottery program may be completely removed by Trump and his supporters. Because president Trump was thinking a system which is based on your skills, that means if your skills are good you'll have higher points just like in the Canada.

Anyway, thank you so much for all you've done for me I have appreciated all of it. Especially, @Dirk diggler I appreciate your knowledgeable long comments for me that helped a lot. :)

I second that. All that an unpaid internship for a for-profit company says to prospective employers is that you are incredibly stupid and that they can treat you like $hit because you have no sense of dignity. Paid internships for for-profit companies and unpaid internships for non-profit organizations are a bit better, but there are still much more productive ways of spending your time.

Absolutely...

Ditch the internship b.s. dude... Unless you want to pour coffee for free in the hopes that you 'might' get a job after months of being someones unpaid secretary/b1tch... There's plenty of corporations that will hire you for certain position even over more experienced and educated candidates if you wow them with your resume and interview. My first job out of college about 2 months after graduating I was making almost double the median us wage while just weeks before that I was delivering pizzas. I'm sure there were more experienced candidates yet they chose me. I'm not a programmer or coder so I'd highly recommend you find a mentor that's not too much older than you and has maybe 5-10 years of experience in that field esp ones who have worked abroad. They'll give you a lot more advice on career prospects. I can tell you more about US corporations in general as well as a few tech firms I've worked at (and currently work), US unis, and a bit about Wroclaw if you have other questions but I'd highly recommend attending workshops, conferences, etc in the field you're interested in. Experienced people are generally more than happy to share their experience and offer advice to a young gun that's entering the same type of career.

You'll fit in at a tech company the way you described yourself above. The people who work there are very friendly and very open minded. They generally tend to be more liberal but nonetheless are open minded enough to discuss some topic with a person who has more conservative viewpoints. All in all, I find these companies have a much better work/life balance than finance companies (where I first started my career) and a lot better atmosphere. For example, the office I work in now has an open floor plan to encourage communication among the lower/mid level guys, many people wear jeans and a collar shirt everyday, and lots of people sit on a medicine ball instead of a chair. There's no clocking in/out either or micromanaging.

If anyone offers you an unpaid internship the proper response is: Fvkk you! Pay me! There is never anything remotely ethical or moral about unpaid internships.

A company that "offers" them would enslave you if they could. Tell them to stick their internship where the sun don't shine.

by chance, hence the name "lottery". The minimum requirement is a high school education, that's all.


you also need living expenses covered


I get it, you don't like your government. I can relate to that, I don't like mine either. While mine isn't throwing people in jail by the thousands, I can still easily lose my job, get a fine, or even a short jail sentence for "speaking my mind". I also want to move away. But there is no rush. They will not come for me tomorrow if I shut up. So I will do that. I keep a low profile, continue to collect a good pay check and use the time wisely to acquire the skills necessary to move in a couple of years.

I would suggest to you to do the same. A B.Sc. in Computer Science is basically the same everywhere. I am very sure you will learn programming at e.g. Atatürk University similarly well as at any other uni. And even if it is not up to par, you can always put in extra work on your own. But you can get that diploma for almost free at home at a state run uni. So I would save my money, maybe earn some extra, and wait to move until I have the skills to start to work - anywhere in the world.


same as in some US schools. But the good thing about computer science is that they cannot meddle with the technology, because here, there is no wiggle room: either your code is doing what it's supposed to do - or not.

My experience may be different from others, but honestly you'll most likely learn all the most important practical things in the real world while working, not in a classroom. Only a few classes like statistics, corporate marketing, financial/managerial accounting, and maybe 1 or 2 other classes taught me things that were actually practical. Other classes like economics, human resources, business law, operations management, etc. all I learned were the definitions of words that are regularly used in a corporate environment. I didn't learn anything about like investing in stocks, how to read candlestick charts, how to use various CRM software, Google Ad words, etc while in school and I went to one of the best division 1 unis in the Midwest US. If anything, I learned more like social skills and such than anything else.

If you're planning on moving to Poland just to study CS, you're better off just staying in Turkey. Like the saying goes, go big or go home. Try to get into one of the top schools in UK or a well known US school. If it doesn't work out, go to a good uni in Turkey. I'm from Wroclaw, born and raised, and I'd really advise against transplanting your life just to study CS there. You can easily learn CS in Turkey and then move to Poland if you like it so much.

I agree. Giving up your home court advantage doesn't make sense unless the payoff is big, and, in this case, studying in Poland does not improve the payoff much, if at all. Not enough to justify the cost, both financially and socially.

Thank you for your precious comments for me. Hearing opinions from you, make me comfortable. :) I appreciate that.

I guess many of you don't know anything about current government of Turkey. That's why you've suggested to me stay in the Turkey. But unfortunately this way have so many practically problems for atheists if you compare in daily life, culturally etc.. Why should I stay here if I'm scared of explaining my ideas ? Why should I continue to live in the culture which is completely excluded for the non-religious ? I would prefer contribute in the Polish society, isn't right ? So, I'll either go to the U.S (if I win Diversity Lottery) or go to the Poland to study (or another European country).

This is my absolute decision, I respect your opinions thanks for that but it doesn't seem logical to me because I know this society and I've been living here since I was born. Actually I don't have to study CS in Poland because Hungary might be good choice for me but I've just learnt IT ındustry is better than Hungary in Poland also English programmes a bit better in the Poland. I will continue to search about that.

Also I heard if I get my CS degree in Poland, I can secure employment in Europe. Because Poland is a member state of EU union but Turkey is not. So maybe I can also live in the UK, I know UK is leaving EU but nevertheless I might chance about finding jobs and get a residence there.

I care about citizens' opinions about immigrants and I also want to contribute a society which is secular and science based. I think British have secular culture (I know state based on Christianity) So, UK or US which one is would be best for me ? I don't care big houses, luxery cars, highest salary or etc.. Of course I must be able find jobs with my Polish CS degree but more importantly I want to live safe and science based, grow my child scientifically, I want to teach them evolution etc... (I probably won't learn new languages such as Polish, German etc..) so please suggest me a country which is its official language is English. I heard in the UK, Muslims are increasing, is that a serious problem for future ?

Thanks.

I hate to break it to you but Poland isn't going to be much better. It is a very homogenous Christian country. You'll be fine if you're in Warsaw or one of the larger cities but it isn't a liberal multicultural place like Germany (which has a very large Turkish population btw). Even if people are nominally Catholic and the Easter/Christmas type of church goers, they're not going to appreciate Atheist views. While Warsaw will be easier for you to blend in among the immigrant population, aside from the nonstop flow of tourists in Wroclaw there isn't all that much foreigners aside from Ukrainians. Wroclaw tends to be more open and liberal than other parts of Poland but nonetheless it's still Poland.. There aren't many people from Muslim countries aside from a few Pakis that also came to study CS/IT and then move westward once they have their degree. Don't be surprised if every so often you face some hostility for being a Turk or coming from a Muslim country - it most likely won't be like violence but you may face and insult or two especially if you're wandering around the areas where the dyskoteki are at like 2 3 AM on a Saturday/Sunday night. The people who are coming from Pakistan/India though where tens of millions (hundreds of millions in India's case) live on a dollar or less a day. The vast majority tend to use PL as a stepping stone for west EU where wages are better and there's way more Indians, Pakis, etc.

Also, I hate to tell you but in day to day life most people tend not to really care about you or your ideas. There's of course people who will discuss and debate with you, like on this forum, but by and large most people are more concerned with just paying their bills and living out their lives. If atheism is that important to you and you wish to find like minded people I'd suggest Czechy as there's far more atheists there. Generally in Europe though you have a separation of church and state. However, in more homogenous countries like in Poland, Hungary, etc. religion tends to influence government, schools, etc. If you're trying to escape the influence of religion whether Muslim, Catholic, Buddhist, whatever Poland isn't the ideal place. Church and state is far more separated in US and UK for example.

You're right about that and I don't expect anyone to care about my own ideas because I won't tell anything about my opinions unless they ask to me my personal belief, opinions. I'm sure in this topic everyone just trying to help me :) I really appreciate that you've been sharing your valuable ideas, experiences with me and this is really good for me thank you very much.


No, atheism is not a something that really important for me but science is really important for me and I just want to build a family that should be completely away from dogmatic ideas.

Also for a long time I've been thinking to live in England. I think UK seems good choice for me. England is a Christian country but society is a secular and quite much non-religious people living there. Also that country has a good education system which is based on science and as far as I know they are only teaching theory of evolution in the public schools. Creationism has been completely removed from the curriculum (in the U.S some states still teaches creationism). Also in the UK weather is good I love rainy days and small houses, streets seem really lovely to me.

I think England might be a good choice for me I can contribute that society but I don't know with Polish degree can I find a software company for the Tier-2 visa. I would appreciate if anyone make a comparison between England and U.S for me. Which one is best for me? I haven't decided yet.

Thanks.

Around 50% of Americans believe the earth to be less than 5000 years old. They get this from the Old Testament, a bronze age set of writings they believe to have been handed down from their god. The UK might suit you better.

Where the hell did you get this info from? That is complete bs.... I can go to just about any state and ask 100 people and if I'm lucky I'll find maybe 5 people who are fundamentalist. Whoever conducted this statistic purposely chose some cut off ultra religious community as their sample. 50% of Americans most definitely don't believe in fundamentalism. Most Americans aren't even regular church goes - the state with the highest states of weekly attendance are Utah with right around 50% and with most states being in the 20-30% range. Even in very religious places like Mississippi only around 60% attend church 'regularly' (not necessarily weekly, but regularly) and far fewer of those believe in fundamentalism. Out of the US there's even more protestants, almost double, than catholics. At most half of those protests are evangelicals and not all evangelicals believe in fundamentalism.

Look at this garbage obviously photoshop image lol (especially inserted picture as well as the cross on the guy choking the other one) shame huffingtonpost

huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-fundamentalist-christian-chokehold-on-america_us_598109dae4b02be325be0206

Atleast unlike the radical Muslims, these radical Christians aren't calling for the deaths of disbelievers and overthrow of the US to be replaced by a theocracy... These radical Christians are a small group and are mostly located within the Bible Belt and rural areas in places like Utah. This isn't a massive movement in the US and most certainly doesn't consist of half of Americans. Hell half of America isn't even white. Please don't spread such falsehoods.

The most extreme sects tend to be Adventists (with Pentecostal in 2nd place) which according to Pew comprise .6% of the US population for 7th Day Adventists and 5% for Pentecostal.

pewforum.org/2015/05/12/chapter-1-the-changing-religious-composition-of-the-u-s


That'll be difficult in Poland because there isn't a whole lot of separation of church and state even in the public schools. They regularly invite Catholic organizations as speakers. It's nearly impossible to avoid some aspect of religion in PL, especially now as there's this sort of return back to our Christian roots and away from the EU's multiculturalism.


I've been to London a few times for work with the tech company I use to work for. I live in the US though. Life is a lot more expensive, especially in London than say like Chicago/NYC/etc. There are several cities in the US like Atlanta, Dallas, Miami, etc. where wages are high and the cost of living is far lower than places like Chicago/NYC/LA. UK is probably better if you're more into culture and want to stay close to Europe. US is better if you want to save money, have more freedom, etc. US has a lot of freedoms that people in UK don't. Also, it'll probably be much easier for you to get into the US as an educated Turk than into the UK.

It was a Gallup poll from 2012. Gallup are reputable pollsters. The actual number is 46 percent.

True. That is, until the day before yesterday, when all hell broke loose. There has been a major diplomatic incident that has really soured relations between the US and Turkey. Things are getting nasty, and neither country is granting visas to citizens of the other country, and probably won't for quite some time.

The story is developing. Just type turkey diplomatic into Google news to follow the latest updates.

This is the latest article at this point in time:

reuters.com/article/us-usa-turkey-security/turkeys-erdogan-blames-u-s-envoy-for-diplomatic-crisis-idUSKBN1CF0XR

@cms

news.gallup.com/poll/155003/hold-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx

The truth is the first thing learned in elementary statistics is that anyone with a basic knowledge of stats can manipulate statistical formulas to give them the result they want whether its choosing a specific or a very small sample and applying it to the population (like it appears they have done in this case since it was only 1k respondents), not stating the error margin, whether it's 90/standard 95/99% confidence (which they also didn't in this case despite they usually use a 95% CI but did state EM), etc. It's nothing new though - companies, polls, news agencies, do this everyday. It's actually very hard to find a good pollster who discloses their methodology. Nice that Gallup did this though - it would be more interesting to see a larger sample, and perhaps clustered and/or stratified sampling.

Gallup isn't too bad though in most cases - still though I don't buy that 'people believe the world is only 5k, 10k years old) for the simple fact that in the entire us there's only 46% Protestands and 20% Catholics. Most Catholics aren't fundamentalist and only certain sects of Protestants are fundamentalist. As far as people believing God creating man - yes their results I would agree with. That's a lot different though than beliving the earth is only 5k years old.

If I selected 1 person in each 50 states, and then used the majority centered around rural areas in Utah, Mississippi, etc I bet I could get the result closer to 60-70%.


Reputable pollsters who had to pay a huge fine for making false claims.

Also, this poll isn't stating that 'half of the US believe the world is 5k years old' what it does state is that '46% of Americans believe God created man' - presumably as opposed to evolution

It also states: 'While 58% of Republicans believe that God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years, 39% of independents and 41% of Democrats agree.' So not much of a different between different political views...

I'm willing to bet these numbers in a Muslim country - including Turkey would be far far higher. Probably not much different in Europe and UK as well.