Thinking of buying an offplan Luxury Property Wroclaw

Hi, I am looking at buying an offplan luxury apartment. The location is great, 10 minutes walk from the Market Square of Wrocław but it seems very expensive at 3000 Euros / meter - What do you guys think ?

Hi Sambud

It will depend on the developer, the finish of the development and the location. There are parts of central Wroclaw that are more attractive then others.

3000 Euros is about 10,500pln per m2 and if it is a 10 minute walk to the market square I would say that 9,000pln to 12,000pln perm2 is the current market rate depending on the apartment building size and location.

I'm very familiar with the Wroclaw market so if you give me an indication of the development you are considering I will give you my thoughts (for whatever they are worth)u.

On a positive note the rental market in Wroclaw is quite bouyant but there will always be a ceiling rental price no matter how luxurious the development so its also important to consider that.

S

Hey thanks for your help - The development is called Angel Wings ( angelwings.pl ) really grateful for any advice

Hi Sambud

I like this development and invested in a property close by in ul. Rakowiec just off ul Niskich Lakach and ul. Na Grobli, so know the area well. Ul Niskich Lakach is a lovely tree lined street and the area south of this development Rakowiec is quiet but very central.

In terms of new developments it's one of the premier new developments currently on the market in Wroclaw. The same company will also be involved with the Hilton Hotel Development and also Hotel Mennicza both of which will be close to Angel Wings.

The location is great, close to the centre and there are also plans to redevelop a sports facility and training grounds in ul. Niskich Lakach. From the developments location you can also walk to the Zoo and Park Szczytniki, not too well known but if you walk down ul. Na Grobli there is a pedestrian foot bridge that takes you accross the river odra to these two locations.

As well as being a short walk to the Rynek it is also very close to Pasaz Grunwaldzki the new shopping centre and not far from Ostrow Tumski.

I saw their development in Krakow and was impressed by the finish so I would recommend this development especially if you consider that Resident Tumska from Ghelamco in Bema Plaza is selling for the same price, I think it is competitive for what it is.

Regards

S

Hi. Just a quick query in relation to thisdevelopment. When is the expected finish date? And the price quoted above per sq m, is that for all the apartments or are the ones higher up more expensive?

And finally, what is the payment schedule like?
Thanks for any information.

Hi - First of all Sin8 Thankd for your advice - its really helpful - I am inclined to agree with you now that it could be seen as competitive but im still struggling to understand how prices in Wroclaw can be more expensive than Some of the major German cities - Frankfurt and Munich especially where you can buy luxury developments in the centre for considerably less than 3000 / m

I believe that the GDP / capita in Germany is still around double that of Poland - so surely you would expect this to be reflected in prices ... really confusing - would be interested to hear your thoughts ?

Vndunne - Re: this development i think completion is around 2 years away - price quoted an average - some considerably cheaper ( low floors, small balcony ) - some more expensive ( higher up , larger balcony )

Payment schedule is fairly standard

samdud, From my own experience of property in wroclaw. i have bought 2 in the past and sold one. I bought a new build about 3 years ago. It started off at 3000 pln per sq/m and quikly rose to about 8000 pln/m by the time the building was complete. During the 2 years there was a huge increase around poland and expecially in Wroclaw. At lot has to do with all the business moving into the area. The mayor is very proactive in trying to develop the area. Things have levelled off in the past year but genrally the prices that you have would be standard for your type of property.

By any chance do you have any website of property developments in munich or Frankfurt?

Hi Sambud

I would agree with Vndunne, the Wroclaw economy is very dynamic and the mayor has marketed Wroclaw and its location very effectively to foreign investors, compared to other polish cities it is easier to do business with a lot less bureacacy.

However I understand your concern obviously Frankfurt is the Financial Services Powerhouse of Germany so you are right it is concerning that you can find high end developments for sale at less then what they are selling for in Wroclaw. However in terms of the culture and psyche there is a huge difference between Poland and Germany. Home ownership in Germany runs at about 40% with most of the population renting for significant periods of their life, however in Poland home ownership and the desire to own property is a lot stronger with most of the population aspiring to own property and when they do there is also a stronger desire to trade up when they can afford to.

There are a number of large investors committed to the Wroclaw market. LC Corp which is run by Polish billionaire Leszek Czarnecki whose hometown is Wroclaw is investing $400 million in the Sky Tower development in Wroclaw in ul Postancow Slaskich and has also developed Arkady Wroclawskie the recently completed shopping centre and office space. Verity Developments have also got a significant number of high end developments in the pipeline for Wroclaw. In my experience MGPA Real Estate (one of the investors in Angel Wings) would not invest in Wroclaw to this extent without a significant amount of analysis and due diligence, I work for RREEF in the UK and am familiar with the extensive research that investment banks and PE firms carry out before making an investment decision.

I also think that entreprenurial spirit is significant, most of my husbands (who is polish and from Wroclaw) friends who live in Wroclaw have already started their own businesses or have business ideas in the pipeline. The profile of these individuals are well educated with degrees who have worked for large organisations etc and now want to start something up for themselves. I think this is also stronger then what you would find in Germany.

If you do decide to invest in Angel Wings or another high end development in Wroclaw I do think that it would have to be for the medium to long term (5 - 10 yrs) rather then the immediate short term.

From a personal perspective, I plan to relocate permanently at the end of the year with my husband to Wroclaw from London as I'm attracted to the dynamic environment and business opportunities within the city and region. We have invested in real estate over the last seven years in Wroclaw and the returns have been significant, however I do think it is important to research the location and developer before you make a decision.

I would suggest that you have a look at the following sites: investmap.pl (in polish) but gives you an excellent overview of the Wroclaw market and development plans and gazetainwestor.com go to the archiwum section and have a read through the recent publications, a lot of the articles are in english and will give you a good overview of the economy and investment plans for Wroclaw.

Good Luck with whatever decision you make

S

Thanks Sin8 - You are a real Gem !

I wouldn't bother comparing property prices in Germany to that of Poland. If your looking for comparisons look closer to home. The German housing market has never recovered from the boom bust situation suffered in the late twentieth century as a result there is no security in the market.

Also if your looking to invest in property in Wrcolaw apply for a permit and buy a house instead. Most locations in Wroclaw are a sea of cranes all building apartment blocks, if youre looking for decent capital appreciation for the mid term investment a house is the best buy with the largest garden you can find.

Angel Wings largest competitor within the high end market at the moment is veritydevelopment.com the CEO of this company has been buying all the best plots over Wroclaw over the past two years and has some extremely nice developments. That is of course if you decide to stick with buying an apartment.

If you want an English speaking contact there PM me and i will refer you.

Hi Sambud

In terms of return on investment I would also agree with Wroclaw Boy and his suggestion to buy a house in Wroclaw. Apartment prices have risen significantly in the last 24 months while house prices in the main haven't risen as significantly and are bound to catch up.

However I purchased a house in Tyniec Maly near Bielany Wroclaw in my own name, independently of my husband and before we were married and the permit process, timescales and assorted bureacacy is one that I wouldn't like to repeat. I kept getting conflicting advice from the various professionals I engaged in addition to conflicting information from the ministery who are almost impossible to get hold off!!!

It is worth looking into, another option is to set up a company to purchase a house, and from my understanding you don't then need to deal with the Ministery for a permit, however you would need to research this throughly. If you do decide to go down this route then I would definitely engage professionals that have experience in this space with foreign investors and research them throughly.

If you don't have any contacts in Poland then investing in an apartment is definitely easier, however purchasing a house is also possible.

Good Luck

S

Samdud,

Please contact me.

I have a one bedroom 54 square metre apartment either for rent or for sale in very central Wroclaw, only 5 minutes from the Market Square. The apartment was only completed in the Autumn of 2007. It may be ideal for you.

I would be very willing to discuss this further on the phone or by email if you would like.

Regards John

Angel Wings looks nice; I have been there at the location and spoken with the salespeople.

However, there are better offers out there in the marketplace at the moment, in terms of better stage payment arrangements (i.e. 10% down, 90% on completion) - and also less onerous terms and conditions in other contracts. I assume you have looked at the other luxury developments also e.g Sky, Riverview etc.

In general, I assume you are not going to buy luxury in Wroclaw for the rental yields; the rental will be particularly poor in the luxury apartments compared with second / used flats or neww, off-plan, smaller, middle market flats.

If you're buying for the price to go up, I agree with others; you'll need to keep it and rent it for 5-7 years to make your money - but you will make money. If you can afford it in the first place, good luck

Can you please provide details for the 10/90 deals in Wroclaw.

many thanks.

Looking for information on the Gdansk legal regulations concernng transfer of state housing to long term residents who happen to be temporarily working abroad. Any links to legal precedent information would be appreciated. Thank you.

Feb 17, 10, 19:18 - Thread attached on merging:
Looking to buy apartment in Wroclaw

Hi all,

I will be travelling to Wroclaw in a couple of weeks with the intention of purchasing real estate - I wondered if anyone has heard of any well priced developments ?

Thanks

Also It looks to me like new build stock that is well located and finished ranges from 5k - 8k Zloty / m - Is that a fair summary ?

what kind of place are you looking for? how big? what location?

Well at the moment we are looking at studios in the Angel Wings development

The triangle isn't the nicest of neighborhoods... very central though. And the company building Angel Wings has built a lot of nice places.

Might I suggest living in Wroclaw for a couple of months before buying a place? That way you can get a feel for the place, and the part of town that you would like to spend an extended period of your life in.

hey Sam, any way you can open your account to private messages?

Yup - Open now

Also - can anyone recommend a good estate agent in Wroclaw ?

Man, be careful with this.

Prices in Wroclaw are expected to fall about 30 - 60% in the next 2 years.

Buying now is the dumbest possible thing to do.

I have a friend who bought few apartments in 2007 in Wroclaw, and now he is desperately trying to sell them now in 2009 but: even if he cutted the prices already by 40% loss, and still NOBODY is buying. He says that all statistics in newspapers are LIES, because the market will go down another minus 50% before somebody actually starts buying apartments in Poland

hi

i lived in Wroclaw before but now moved to Moscow. i like this city a lot and look for a place i can afford to buy.

criteria:

1. house, 10-15 km from center, 80-90 sm, south of Wro.,
2. flat, in the center or close to, 2-3 rooms, better to be new flat,

anyone who knows well the market now and it's right time to buy? i come over to Wroclaw frequently and have time to discuss more face to face

tks a lot

hans

Hi Hans!

I too am interested in looking at residential real estate in Wrocław.

I would want a luxury flat near the center.

It looks like the Angel Wings property is for sale and partially occupied.

I'll be doing my own research based on the helpful information in this forum and elsewhere. I'd love a current update.

Best of luck!

Agnes

wait another few months

For once, I agree with Mark. Wait until the current economic uncertainty has cleared a bit (i.e. it has become clear exactly when and how Greece is going to default). Prices are not going to be going up by even a grosze this year for the type of property you want.

As far as I can see (not including Warsaw) - that type of property just isn't desirable at all at the minute - no doubt due to the rubbish build quality of most of them.

"dnz" that sometimes posts on here used to live in a place that was no more than 18 months old - and was already falling to bits.

I don't think they will fall so much, however the talk around town is that Germany may be facing financial problems at the moment, this is behind problems in Italy, America is bankrupt. I cannot see real estate in Poland increasing much in the future...(that is my opinion) btw just look how hard it is to get a loan from a Polish bank at the moment and if they lend its only for small amounts...

It isn't hard at all: week before last I applied for an unsecured loan of 53,000zl and was approved in less than ten minutes. I didn't actually draw the loan but I was surprised at how easy it was to get.

Thanks for all this thoughtful input. Perhaps I can use my visit to educate myself rather than rushing to buy.

How negotiable are the list prices? I would not need financing.

It looks like the Angel Wings development is being actively marketed and may be partially completed.

Poland should be very thankful not to be in the Eurozone at present and should be in no hurry to join.

Agnes