Well the problem is that I already signed contract this morning for a flat with Rent and Utilities bills, and now the owner is telling me that I will pay also this CZYNSZ which is huge, he considers it to be an "utility bill" paid in advance at the beginning of each month... this is crazy
It is not a utility bill and you should ask to see the precise statement from the housing association before handing over a penny. Have you actually moved in yet? Btw, your landlord almost certainly doesn't declare the income to the tax office so you do have a bit of leverage.
One possibility is to move in then just leave. Perhaps give notice after a couple of weeks if the landlord fails to provide proof of the amount of czynsz. And of course report him/her to the tax office. Btw, czynsz often depends on the number of people in the flat and 1000zl monthly on top of the rent just seems wrong. That's actually a quarter of the average wage!
I remember years ago when I was renting a flat in Warsaw, I also had to pay this czynsz, which was twice the normal rent amount which the owner of the flat would have to pay. It all depends if the flat is located as an individual flat owned wholly by the owner, of if the flat belongs to spoldzielnia mieszkaniowa.
This only goes to show that you should read what you sign, never hand over any money without a Bill or an invoice. Make sure that the landlord is actually registered with the tax authorities. Ask for your money back and tell him that you will go to the police and the tax authorities to tell them how he wants to scam you. Get a Polish speaker to explain everything.
If I would make a scandal, for sure I will lose the 2 months rent deposit plus the 1 month rent I already paid.
I think that's a given. One problem in Poland is that the deposit is held by the landlord rather than centrally in a fund. A very high deposit too.
Terri's advice is good. I would suggest moving on as soon as convenient. About the money you already paid him, was it via the bank or was it cash, and if cash, did you get a written receipt?
I understood that a large majority of landlords do not declare to the tax office
Not in 2016. Nowadays majority of landlords do declare income to the tax office. In your case simply czynsz looks to high but this is Warsaw a big city. In Olsztyn czynsz usually is from 300 to 600 plus 1200 rent pcm and 1000zl deposit.
Re receipts: I make everyone sign a document that they have received any money from me. This includes the gas engineer when he does the annual check, the electrician or in fact any workman. Just stating the date, amount, purpose and the two parties is enough.
What evidence would you have that you have handed any money over if nothing is signed?
How can anyone justify cashing in 6,000 zl per apartment per year - therefore 600,000 zl for a simple block of flats for 1 year...For what?
Half of that cost heating. Cold water, hot water, waste, refurbishment fund, heat insulation fund, cleaner, gardener, removing snow (bulldozer etc), council tax. (only electricity bill is always not included). Plumbers and Electricians on the alert 24h a day. Spółdzielnia of course waste a part of this money for bureaucracy but you have lovely peace of mind ;) They will never allow to neglect houses like owners in the UK because it is their source of income and excuse for existence.
With 600,000 zl you basically can build one new extra house
and cooperative build new luxury blocks of course ;)
In my experience I have never heard yet of a single owner who declares rent income to tax office.
I cannot agree. People declare rent income to the tax office because in case of any trouble they cannot call the police for help. If the tenant doesn't pay they cannot do anything legal. They want to pay a tax and have peace of mind.
As I understand it, you have more chance of going to the Moon than getting rid of a tenant from your own flat. The fact that it is recorded with the tax authorities does not carry any weight. If the tenant stops paying, you will have to go to the Courts to evict him. This will take over a year.
On any rental agreement, the tenant has to specify an address where they would go in case of any disagreement with the landlord.
1. If the legal regular way takes more than 1 year through polish courts, who is paying for the cost of the rent and czynsz for that year?
2. peter olsztyn, maybe in your particular case, everything is included in "czynsz"
in my case, nothing is included in czynsz except for: "community rent" , administration costs". "garbage disposal", "rulment fund" whatever these empty words may mean...
1. The czynsz must be paid. If the tenant does not pay it, then the landlord himself becomes liable and must pay it. If the czynsz is not paid, the 'housing association' (spoldzielnia) can go to the Court in order to evict the landlord for non-payment of czynsz and take over the property, which will then be sold for the costs of czynsz and all associated court costs. This is the law.
2. You have to be very careful to read the document of what is and is not included in the czynsz. Czynsz can include payment for any communial space, i.e. cleaning, lighting, snow disposal, leave clearing in the summer, administration fund, maintenance fund. If a landlord wants to charge the tenant, the tenant has a right to know what is included. The tenant can go to the Administrator of the building and ask for details.
knowing what is "included" in this weird czynsz doesn't warm me up in any way, as I still am in the situation in which the owner asks me to pay it,
and I still think it is pure insanity, because the amount is so high that it is a clear ripoff.
heating, gas, water and electricity will be separate bills
Who gets all this czynsz, as I calculated before, it easily makes the recipient of the czynsz from all apartments in the block easily a multi millionaire
This is Warsaw. Despite of horrendous prices there are a lot of con landlord/ladies too. In Olsztyn there is a huge shortage of land for a new construction sites. Prices of land become ridiculous. Everyone wants to become a landlord/cooperative.
I would not pay it at all. Ask the landlord to sue you for it. He stands no chance. You really need to have a word with the Administrator of the building. There are rules/regulations for all members of the spoldzielnia. One of them may be that he is not even allowed to rent the flat out. I would find out anyway. Tell them in the office that he is charging you that much and see what they say.
The czynsz also goes for the upkeep of the building/building repairs which include minor and major repairs such as the roof, externals.
Anna2016: how big is the flat that you rent ? I would say that "czynsz" for the community is usually around 10-15 pln per m2. usually is something around 10-12 pln per m2. so if you have flat 40 m2, you will pay around 400 PLN/ per month for that. What is included in that "czynsz" - usually most of it is the central heating and hot water, which I think is responsible for around 40-60 % of czynsz fee. the rest is garbage, elevator.
on top of "czynsz" you will have to pay small fees for electricity, gas and media like internet connection - which usually all doesnt exceed 150-200 PLN/ per month.
If you DON'T HAVE CENTRAL HEATING, the standard "czynsz" for 40 m2 flat would be something around 200-250 PLN. But you would have to add to that bills for electric or gas heating every winter which will be basically the same or bigger than paying "czynsz" with heating
czynsz of 1000 PLN per month seems very high, unless you rent flat that is around 80 m2
and I will say that again: flats in Poland are ridicoulosly expensive and there is shortage of flats on the market, thats why the prices are so high.
if I would meet such landlord that tries to exploit foreigner like that I would kick his nuts or whatever she/ he has... People have no shame...
Unless of course, I understood you correctly. However, I doubt that what you encountered would be standard price, as most of the owners are quite honest. greedy? maybe, but honest - most of the times
Levels of czynsz are not particularly high here. This landlord however is trying to exploit his tenant.
Right now in Warsaw, there is a surplus of flats to let, it is a renter's market. Despite that, there are landlords with unrealistic expectations about the rental value of their property. The OP should quit the flat; this person is trying to rip her off.
