Poland house prices recovered faster - Summary of 2010

What is fraudulent about a legal transaction in which the buyer and the seller agree on the value of the property being sold? Answer: nothing. That is one of the reasons why real estate in Poland is not a Ponzi scheme.

The Polish property bubble is a classic example of a ponzi scheme..


The fraud is the fact that the architects, manipulate the transaction, in order to give an illusion of fair play.

I thought you were just stupid and ignorant until I read this, now everyone is able to see what an idiot you are. What the hell has an architect got to do with an agreed price between a buyer and seller? An architect designs a building, its of no interest to them what the building sells for. Perhaps, you meant the "estate agents", no matter, you usually get all the facts wrong anyway.

And how do the 'agree' the value of property? Simple, the buyer sells it for more than he paid. The seller buys in the belief he will be able to sell it on latter for a higher price. This continues until a bigger fool cannot be found or a bank can/will no longer lend. A classic Ponzi scheme.

So your one reason why its not a Ponzi scheme, is actually evidence that it is.

Ok for the benefit of Milky and peterweg a Ponzi scheme is....

A type of fraud that uses money from new investors to pay off earlier investors, while promising high rates of return. Ponzi schemes generally unravel when the pool of new investors dries up.

Whether you think property in Poland is overvalued or undervalued, the Polish proerty market is NOT a ponzi scheme.

So the sum total of you argument is; "I don't think so"

All property markets work in the same way, Poland isn't any different.

No, the Polish property market (and all others) are not Ponzi schemes because they don't fit the definition of a Ponzi scheme.

And proprty markets which consist of transactions at an agreed upon price between buyers and sellers are not Ponzi schemes. If you need the classic example of one, google Bernie Madoff. His was a 50 billion dollar Ponzi scheme. Real estate in Poland or anywhere else is not. If a buyer pays an inflated price in the hope of subsequently making a profit but doesn't, well, that's just a poor decision on his part. It happens everywhere.

Good. Now I will sell all my houses and buy Wawel Castle.

As I am going to make it my private property (NO TRESSPASSING!!) upon the purchase, can you try to finish visiting Wawel before the deal?

Bullshit. There is no definition of valuation of an asset.

How much is an house worth?

Well, it DEPENDS.

Yeah, it depends on what other similar houses in the area have recentlly sold for, and on what a buyer is willing to pay for it. The only bullshit here is your insistance that it's a Ponzi scheme, which it's not. Do your research, man.

A Ponzi scheme is an investment structure, where fresh money coming in, is used to pay off existing shareholder dividends, therefore there is no asset base. If you buy real estate, you are buying a physical asset. You are making the mistake of comparing a Ponzi scheme to an Asset bubble, the root of an Asset bubble is unregulated cheap money, freely available loans. After the financial crisis of 2008, Polish banks have tightened their lending policy, resulting in less buyers with access to funding, which has created an oversupply of units and a softening of prices, as developers cash up stock. It is not a crash, it is a blip. Having said that it will be some time before we start to see any big price swings again, but there will be no crash. Unless of course the US $ collapses, then we are all f*cked no matter what you are holding. If the US* collapses the best investment would be a farm.

Perhaps you are also interested in Sigismund's Column?I would sell it cheap.

A house is worth what somebody will pay for it. If somebody buys a house, by definition we know what it is worth, because somebody has just paid that much.


Yet another classic example of Mark having no idea what he's talking about.


No, I'm pointing out that the property market in Poland is not Ponzi scheme, although it could be a bubble. Our resident property expert, milky mark, is insisting that it's a Ponzi scheme.

Why then, would it change in value?

Some **** poor attempts at explaining why property isn't a Ponzi scheme, abject fail.

H, my post was aimed at Peterweg, anyone that insists the Polish real estate market is a Ponzi scheme, need to read this

google.com/search?&q=what+is+a+ponzi+scheme

After purchase, the price of a property/real estate can go up as well as down. If the market falls, then the property you purchased few years ago, may have to be sold for LESS than you paid for it.

A property is only worth as much as somone is willing to pay for it, so the fact that properties are on offer for X amount, does not mean they are worth that much.

When money is easily available, people can obtain mortgages (sometimes over 100% of the value of the property/real estate), however during unemployment and depression, banks do not lend, people can't pay and have to sell.

Properties are now being sold in Poland through auctions - where there is no chance of the vendor/seller getting the price they paid.

How is this a Ponzi scheme?

Did you actually read it yourself?

I already posted the description of a Ponzi scheme, please explain how the Property is NOT a Ponzi scheme. Please, refute
the facts with more than 'no it isn't' and 'READ THIS'

It isn't. However, some people do not know what a Ponzi scheme is, and so they insist that it is one.


Legal transactions in which the buyer and the seller agree the value of the property are not fraudulent.
And who is the 'organisation' which earns profits?

Well you have had ample opportunity to provide an argument or explanation as to why property is not a Ponzi scheme and failed.

No, Peter. Four or five posters here have stated correctly that it isn't and why it isn't. It just requires a little mental precision on your part to get the drift. Lose the mental block you and milky seem to have about how financial and other markets actually work and you might get there. A gentle reminder:


No fail. Not on our side of the fence, anyway.

When the world runs out of money, which is highly unlikely, as they would print their way to hyper inflation, at that point the best investment would be real estate and land as it would have an intrinsic value.

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing. You are wriggling like a slippery pig, every time someone rebuffs your statement, you come back with something more ludicrous.


Yes I did read it and I understand it, do you understand what is written or do you need someone to explain, the mechanism to you.

For those 'in the know' - buying and selling property is NOT a Ponzi scheme. Stop insisting that it is, as you only show your lack of knowledge of what a Ponzi scheme is. You have no idea, yet speak with some authority on a subject that is beyond your comprehension.

People have been buying and selling properties/real estate since Adam was a lad and everybody is happy with the way the system works.
You want something, you know the price, you either accept it and buy it or you move on. This is the way it will always be....

Only people that can afford nice properties are happy with it.


what if that person doesnt have money?


You sure about that?

the prices of property in developed countries are just another extension of the corrupt nature of the monetary system, i dont think its fair that my parents were able to buy a large four bedroomed house for about £20k, the mortgage could be afforded on a single persons average wage, now a days both average income parents need to work, put their children into care just to able to get buy.

Which ever way you cut it the explosion in Polish property prices was just ridiculous and totally priced the average citizens out of the market.

WB, have you watched this yet ?

New rules of the game.
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=112129377629231653#

Wroclaw Boy-
If you haven't got the money - you learn to do without.

...Just for clarification...Please tell me what other way will people buy and sell properties and WHO will determine the price of a property/real estate......if not the market?

Sure, its unfair, as I remember when you could go on a night out, get drunk, have some chips on the way home and still get change from a fiver - good old days, but life moves on. And another thing - you can't beat the system.....no way.

The only failing here is you failing to understand what a Ponzi scheme is.

We can argue about whether property in Poland is over-priced or not, there is room for opinion there, but not about whether the property market in Poland is a Ponzi scheme: it is not and can not be!

No one is disputing that real estate prices in 2008 started to reach dizzy heights, a lot of this was due to the ease in which people could get a mortgage/loan. In 2011 the tables have turned, As Avalon pointed out in an earlier thread, the market has re-aligned itself. Developers are now focused on apartments/flats of 40-70 m2, as well as houses 120-180m2 on the outskirts of the city, to bring it more in line with what the rising middle class can afford.

Ones inflation the other isnt, huge difference, i assume you dont need me to explain.


You said


and i said


I really dont have the time to explain any further, but just think about this, do you think that 10 thousand years from now (assuming the earth is still here) we would not have evolved from the old monetary system?


You sure about that?


Not yet, i'll try and check it out later im a bit busy at the moment.

Wraclaw Boy...

...I don't really think that I am concerned very much about the situation 10,000 years from now and no we will never evolve from the monetary system, as there is nothing else to replace it with.

Next you'll be telling me that the Government will provide everybody with housing, nobody will ever work and they will just sit on their bums watching TV...yeah, dream on...

And yes, I am absolutely positively sure that ...you can't beat the system...Many have tried, but you just can't do it and that's that.