Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland?

You know the 3 most important things in real estate market: location, location, location :)
correction

I know, one thing of note however is the beautiful oak parquet flooring in these buildings.
It is the only benefit I have seen to date of having a 'made up' economy.
And because of the association, I see people throwing out this wonderful flooring!



I am glad we are talking about this because I was thinking about this last night.
You buy a new flat, you can't use it and it looks terrible.
Would you buy a car without an engine and without a colour so you could make it yourself according to their own taste or vision?

How about pieces of material so you could sow your own clothes together, specially made for your 'unique' tastes?
Chances are you are too busy working at whatever job or responsibilities you have to do absolutely everything yourself.
And you can ask anyone who is not from an ex-commie country and they will tell you that this is a waste of time in the same way the ridiculous things I have posted are a waste of time for the majority of people (mass production).

The developer should have a range of fashionable finishes available to choose from and if you don't like it you should then change it but as shown in this thread, it is the buyer that wants to "finish it according to their own taste or vision." How you get the time and money to do this is beyond me, plus you can't move in until it's sorted out.


I believe Magdalena told it how it is, it is a hangover from communism.


This is obviously a matter of taste but there is no fashion that lasts for 10 years.

"Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months".
Oscar Wilde

I don't believe that. Any chance you could break down the costs?

Cost, cost, cost - and I thought that it was the Poles who were cheap according to the PF members :)
Buyers get to choooose on which kind of a throne they will be sitting for next dozen of years, it is very important to have such freedom. It's the exact opposite of the 'ex-commie' years where everyone had the same equipment, furniture etc.


That is an exagerration. I moved in to a newly finished building with over 100 flats as one of the first inhabitants. There was drilling, sure but not continuous nor taking years. In short - nothing to write home about.


It would be ridiculous if you were led to believe that you are buying a finished apartment.


Sure, but the point is that they don't have to. My work colleagues have spent weeks deciding on what kind of wood to put on the floor or where to put the bay in the wall for TV. It was funny from my perspective (maybe I am the cheap Pole?) but it's good that there is such possibility.

You keep seeing the subject as a half-empty glass and I'm telling you that the natives prefer it this way because it's better (to us, maybe not to SeanBM).

Developers always say we dont finish apartments as it provides buyers the opportunity to finish themselves, fact is they think its more profitable to not finish. The problem with Polish developers finishing apartments would be that all the appliances and fixtures and fittings would be so crap, they'd fall apart within weeks.


I have experienced both and think the Polish system is ludicrous. Who the hell wants to have to build staircases in their split level apartments and houses after purchasing. Why not just build the whole thing, its kind of like buying a cheeseburger with no cheese.

No, I do not have the break down costs, if someone tells me that is how much it cost, I believe,why would they lie. WB are you part of the truth police on PF, you should remember in 2000 there were not the same options available, for high end materials on the Polish market, as there is today, if you wanted designer products you imported it. Nowadays Brits travel to Poland to buy bathrooms,tiles and other products, because it is significantly cheaper.


I agree with you, I am in the process of buying an apartment in Warsaw, that was built in 2001 and had a complete refit in 2005, the first thing I will do,

is completely redesign all bathrooms and toilets.


SeanBM, is very fair with his posts, he is informing the OP what to expect, it can get a little getting used to,the Polish way. although I am glad to say that a little bit of the Polish wise-buy has rubbed off on me over the years.


recoil, everyone in Poland is aware that moving into a new build it will take time for the refits to stop, maybe in your building most flats were bought as investments or simple have not been sold yet.


The nice thing about this forum, there will always be different opinions, WB thinks it is outrageous to spend 100,000 Euro on your bathroom and Bzlbzioh does not think it is over the top. I personally think it is over the top. But not as bad as the latest one I heard from a Polish couple- traveling to Milan to buy designer handles for their internal doors or flying to New york to have a pair of trousers made by a top end tailor. I guess Warsaw is Warsaw and Wroclaw is Wroclaw.


B, I was led to believe in Poland it was, timing,timing,timing lol

Of course the house price as I mentioned, was NOT inclusive of land and finishings.

Be mindful of landlords here. I've heard some stories where they blame the tenant for natural wear+tear or sth that heavy rain caused (bubbles on the walls). My friend was asked to pay 8000PLN to get rid of mould and he told his landlord where to go. Lucky for him, he was already moving out.

Is this a bad time to buy an apartment in Poland?

Is this not the question?

I think the person is talking about the prices and have they come down, not about kitchens and the fact that you are only buying a shell.

My opinion, it is a good time to buy quality apartments, that would have been significantly higher in price 18 months ago. There is less buyers on the market so there is more haggle room. So I would say 80% yes, there are some good offers out there.


Piotr123, if you are going to Krakow, you may want to consider, asking someone who is based in Krakow,to assist you in your quest. Dealing with Polish agents, they will only show you, what they want to sell you or the properties they get the big commission's on. If you have someone that knows the rules, especially someone that speaks Polish, you will have a more fruitful experience. They would act as a sounding board and it would be money well spent, because they know how to save you money.

Shock value, isnt that obvious? I want to know how much they paid for a bath within that 100,000 Euro bracket. 40,000 PLN?


If you like yeh.


Sorry thats false info, Castorama is owned by KingFisher group which runs B&Q, Ikea is Swedish and well known to have fair prices right accross the board. Bodzio thats a 100% Polish company and 100% cheap and awful.

As if my mate is going to travel to Poland in a van and buy his bathroom materials then drive all the way back.

Its probably cheaper in the UK anyway.


Its got nothing to do with location its all about ones wealth and obsession, doesnt the richest man in Poland reside in Wroclaw?


I didnt say it was outrageous what i actually said was:

No it is not obvious ! I happen to know these people, a little off the wall they maybe, they do not need to shock anyone, different class WB


Well, if he lives close by, go and ask him how much his bath cost and see what he has to say to you...

quote=Wroclaw Boy]Sorry thats false info, Castorama is owned by KingFisher group which runs B&Q, Ikea is Swedish and well known to have fair prices right accross the board. Bodzio thats a 100% Polish company and 100% cheap and awful.As if my mate is going to travel to Poland in a van and buy his bathroom materials then drive all the way back.Its probably cheaper in the UK anyway.[/quote]

Just for you WB: property.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/property/overseas/article7112728.ece


Well, I would disagree with you, many Polish developers offer finishing on apartments to a very good standard, it is called " Pod Klucz"

Find a link: domdevelopment.com.pl/dzial-aranzacji-wnetrz/programy-wykonczen.html


That would seem to be your problem, do you have any experience of property in Poland, have you ever bought property here?


Well you are not doing a very good job are you ?

Not just cost but easier, quicker and cleaner, as it all gets done at the same time with little to no movement of fittings and fixtures.


I get the impression you only know about the Polish (or more precisely, ex-commie) way of doing things. Have you bought anywhere out side of ex-communist countries to have a comparison with?


Hahaha, why on Earth would it be ridiculous to buy a finished apartment?

Would you buy a car without an engine and without a colour so you could make it yourself according to their own taste or vision?

How about pieces of material instead of finished clothes? so you could sow your own clothes together and dye them, specially made for your 'unique' tastes?


There is always such a possibility.
Again I see that you have only ever known the ex-commie way of doing this and therefore think it is the best by default, It is not.


I don't believe you have seen the that the cup can be full.
The natives prefer the ex-commie way because they have no choice and are too busy justifying why the way it is, is the best way.

Shake things up a bit man, don't go with the established procedures :)
And you will find you'll have more time on your hands and a few more paregroszy in your pocket.


No but do not expect huge returns, especially over a short period, those days are gone.


I believe this has lead on to other things. It would be wrong to speak about buying apartments and not mention what could be seen as a hidden cost.


Ah, you can see where someone would think it impossible to build a bathroom for the price of a house.
It does boggle my mind though, say you have a jacuzzi, sauna, plunge pool, swimming pool, showers and a toilet that makes the queen of England's throne look like a common school desk chair, it'd still be very expensive but if you included medical equipment, that'd be a different story. Gold pipes for purity, the whole shabang.


Just out of curiosity, what do you mean?

There are several things that are done here better than in Ireland/England. First and formost are the doors, they are like forth-knocks here, when I go back to Ireland, I look at the pitiful lock on the front door and wonder how people feel secure at all :)

You'd probably enjoy and add to this W: Construction (Poland Vrs where you are from)

Because I prefer to put things exactly where I want them and to have precisely the level of finish and quality I want. I want to decide where all the power points are and how many are in each place. I want a good quality shower and it has to have one of those bar mixers, not a level that can be accidentally hit by a stray elbow. I want a wooden toilet seat and I want the toilet close enough to the sink that I can puke while shitting (food poisoning is a fact of life out here). I do not want a bidet, I do not want a bath. I do not want space for a microwave in my kitchen. And most of all, I do not want a fuccking German-style 'lay and display' toilet!

However, with all that said, I didn't buy a new apartment (I bought an old one which hadn't been renovated for 40 years and then had it stripped back to bare brick).

Yeah, gutting an old apartment and buying a new one are two very different things.

And a point can be made that some developers, if let finish the place, would do a poor job but that is where a good contract comes in.


How many times have you had food poisoning here?
I have never had it here, except through my own fault.

Solves the splashback problem...although, arguably, there could be a link to scatism.

The problem with ANY developer is that they always install the cheapest materials. No matter whether we are talking $350,000 or $850,000 condos. There is even a special class of windows, for example, called ...surprise surprise... "developer quality". Every guy in trade will tell you that they install the same crap everywhere, no matter the price of the apartment: the place has to look good and last until the guarantee runs out (usually a year). So the Poles being thrifty as they are, I'm not surprised that they prefer to finish apartments themselves.

When I was looking to buy a house 10 years ago I was specifically looking for a house in an established area (no chance that tomorrow somebody will build me a highway or open a daycare next door) which was NOT recently renovated, as I know that pps are also prepping their homes before sale using the same technique of doing it at the cheapest. So why to pay for someone else's ugly renovation? I renovated it myself and it's gorgeous.

And BTW usually developers are not installing appliances: it's up to the buyer.


I hate those with passion


What is this?

I heard of apartments and houses being sold in an unfinished state in Poland, but I thought this was no longer the reality since long ago. For me the phenomenon seems like a contradiction as people buying expensive apartments are usually wealthy, and as such they are usually not adept at construction work unless they are engineers.. Donald Trump might know a lot about real estate but he certainly does not do the the construction work himself, instead leaving it to professionals.

How could such a person install the plumbing and do the electrical work in his new luxury villa by himself? In Poland he would even be required to build the stairs himself! Of course none of this is practically possible and instead he hires some professionals, right?

Buying an apartment from a reputable developer is considered a guarantee for the construction work to be of high quality. The developer could relinquish responsibility for any faults by claiming that the second party, the company hired by the buyer, is actually responsible for the faults. Of course that company in turn would relinquish any responsibility by claiming that the faults were there to begin with. The buyer would then be forced to pursue a legal battle for compensation.

I'm no expert in the field but I doubt one company could do all the finishing work, so the buyer would have to enlist the services of many different parties. The situation will then be even more complicated for the buyer. How could a layman be able to ascertain the quality of the work done by so many different parties? Even if only one of the companies hired is dishonest it could be very expensive to repair the damage done.

I don't know how the owner scheme looks in Poland as there are many different variants. In Sweden the buyer doesn't actually own the apartment, instead owning a share in the apartment building corresponding to the stake of his investment. The other apartment owners must therefore authorize any construction work done in the apartment. If the work is not well done then the apartment owner is forced to make amends.

Even if this is not the system in Poland then it should still be in the interest of the other apartment owners that the work done is of high quality. How can it be possible to make sure of that if each apartment owner is to finish the apartment at his own discretion? Perhaps he hires some dishonest company? In worst case he is a layman but does the construction work himself to save money.


As for renovating ones bathroom for 100000 euro, rich Swedish people are usually so cheap that they recycle bottles and cans for money. One of the richest people in the world, Ingvar Kamprad, drives around in a Volvo 240 GL from 1993! I think renovating ones bathroom for 100000 euro is a "nouveau riche" phenomenon which is more rare in western Europe.


How much is it possible to haggle down the price if paying in cash instead of taking a mortage loan from the developer? That the apartment is not finished when I buy it is definitely a problem. I guess buying the apartment furnished is out the question then?


I have relatives in Krakow and I can speak Polish even if I'm quite rusty. Also, I think that I know the ropes well enough not to fall in the biggest traps as a "frajer".

Concerning the discussion about prices, even the really expensive apartments in Sweden are located in old, worn out buildings which are very cold. All the apartments in Sweden basically look the same on the outside. In fact, many apartments in ghettos can look much better on the outside than extremely expensive apartments in the city center of Stockholm.

What you pay for in Sweden is the address and location, nothing else. Apartments are so expensive in Sweden that many new developments have huge mortage loans and the apartment owner must pay for the mortage loan monthly in addition to his own mortage loan for the apartment. The consequence is that people can pay €800 monthly for an apartment they own! This is in addition to the possible mortage loan they have for the apartment itself.

If new developments did not have mortage loans then the price for the apartments would be so high that normal people could not afford it. The mortage amortization period can often be up to 100 hundred years! There are some apartments in the center of Stockholm with little or no loans, although such apartments can often cost up to 1 million euro or more.

a toilet with a shelf.... to check if u have worms etc. it's a style of toilet bowl the germans were keen on, but not so much these days. i've never seen one in Poland.

There are plenty of "nouveau riche" in Poland.


It depends on the situation,,of course if you are a cash buyer, there is no risk of you being refused a mortgage, so that will have a value to the seller.

Here is a place I viewed while in Krakow, Poland.

It is priced at 2,100,000 was previously 2,500,000PLN, if you got it for 1,500,000 PLN I think that would be a good price. I made an offer for the place, but the person wanted to try and rent, I know they have been unable to find a tenant. It's a great location, one of the best views in Krakow.


Ok here are a couple of sites for you to navigate your way around:

domiporta.pl
trader.pl


There are many apartments in Warsaw, were the offer price are well above 1,000,000 Euro

Good luck with the search.

What's the matter with a nice bathroom? It's their money...meh.

Not in the UK or Ireland.


That report is unbelievably biased, what a load of BS. I'm generally aware of the prices here in PL from most of the out lets, not much difference between here and the UK.


Turn key at a price, totally different.


Lets get back to your quote


and the context in what it was written in. Dont be silly.


What that i dont believe you? there are many liars/exaggerators on this board.


Plenty more than most


A few


I could do much better if i had some more time. I will try with you a little harder from now on.

asecular.com/~scott/misc/kittens.htm

An example is shown here.

They are terrible. They stink, are impossible to pee into when standing up and use more water.


You lucky man. I've rented a couple of flats which had the things, horrible!

Yes, they are popular in Poland. My parents have one of those.

So the person who wrote the article for The Times, just made it up, when the writer quotes sources and facts I have to believe she is telling the truth.You being generally aware of prices does not provide me with the confidence to disbelieve the journalist.


Do not weasel out, it completely contradicts what you had to say about the finishing works of Polish developers.


I am starting to find this out.



This does not really go hand in hand ,does it


That's your choice.

What an absurd comparison.

Cars usually come in various colours, with different engines, with different quality of interior and with many optional components that can be installed. As for the clothes example - seriously...

On the other side each flat is completely unique - and when I want to buy particular one and the bathroom is finished with for example dark tiles or has a tub instead of shower then that is a problem to me. Maybe you in the same position would be ok with this but please acknowledge that majority of Poles prefer it this way.


It does not matter what people in other countries think. Maybe it's a waste of time to them, but not to us. Capiche?


No, I haven't. I assume that it automatically invalidates my preference of deciding by myself on the standard of my apartment.


Oh, they have a choice - a female friend of mine had her small flat finished by the developer. People simply mostly choose not to take this option - if it was otherwise then everyone would be following her path and developers would be doing their best to make some more money on the finishing. Capitalism, yay!


There are no procedures involved, only free market deciding what is good in given context.


That's very nice of you to drop pearls of wisdom around the 'ex-commie society' that does not know any better. Thanks!

So do apartments.


The real problem appears to be, you don't know what I am talking about.
If you want bright fluffy yellow ultra violet tiles on your bathroom, you can get it.


It certainly shows.
I just can't understand, since you have no comparison, why you don't even consider an alternative?


There is complete lack of experience, you think that finishing an apartment you have just paid for is the most normal thing in the world.

See how ridiculous you think the car example is? well that's the very same thing.


Any time, pity the pigs have clogged up ears.

That is one of the funniest things, I have read in a long time.

Lets revisit the above for clarification

you said:


Which means i have much more experience than most, rozumiem.

next you said:


This answer means that i have bought a few properties in Poland.

What doesnt go "hand in hand" about those comments?


Im not saying he made it up, there you go putting words into my mouth again, i said it was:


The press manipulate facts, figures and truths for a story - i mean "why let the truth get in the way of a good story" right?


This is frustrating, a turn key solution offered by a developer at a premium is different than a standard finish for all apartments within any given development.


So youre argument is quality right, if its a selective finish presumably with upgrades then prices are charged accordingly. Obviously the quality would be higher depending on the premium.

My argument that Polish developers would install poor materials in order to increase profit for a standard finish across the board is totally inline with my experience, hell thats capitalism.

So what about the above is weaseling out?

This is just one point youre trying to squirm your way out of, theres plenty of others too and im going to address them when i have the time. As mentioned previously im a little busy right now, so you'll have to take a rain check.

You sound like a hear say specialist to be honest.

You don't see the difference between buying a car and the apartment. Wow. You also conveniently ignore the fact that you can very often get it finished by the developer if you ask for it. It's just that not enough people ask for it to became a default.


I did consider the alternative when I had a choice to let the developer finish my flat or do it by my own means (that is by paying a chosen crew to do the work according to my preference at any detail). But I never bought a real estate abroad so it does not matter as I don't have the comparison.


That's the end of the discussion with you.

Then I must be the exception to the rule. The windows in the apartments I have just built are UPVC with a 5 year guarantee, pation doors are sliding, not the crappy Polish ones which open inwards. The main access doors to the building are "white powder coated aluminium", much stronger due to the additional wear of more passenger traffic, these also have a 5 year guarantee.

Think carefully before you "tar every builder with the same brush".

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