Although it seems on this forum that ALL the Poles abroad are living in the UK, Ireland, US and Canada, I know for a fact that there are many of them living in the Netherlands. And although I personally think this forum at some times is a bit too much UK-oriented, I would like to know of Polish experiences in the Netherlands. How do they fit in Dutch society? How do they cope with the difficult Dutch language? What do they think of living in the Netherlands in generally? I (as being a Dutchman) would like to hear this, would be a nice change from always hearing how it is to live as a Pole in the UK.
M-G (not that I don't like the UK, on the contrary)
Dutch generally is perceived as a very difficult language to learn, much more difficult than German. Maybe not grammar-wise as we use the latin grammar (and like German, we used to have endings, only we had 6 cases instead of 4 in German). To outsiders it may seem that they are the same language, hence it shouldn't be too hard to learn once you know German, the reality is that all the different pronounciations and the fact that one word can have up to 6 (!) different meanings, depending on the context, makes it one of the hardes languages for foreigners to learn. But as with anything, once you really make an effort, you will be able to learn it. This however leads sometimes to foreigners making very funny errors when they are speaking or writing Dutch.
M-G (some Dutch can't even speak or write Dutch properly)
Ok, maybe it's not the right thread for this but i've got a few questions about your language.
The two letters -ij make the sound [ai], right? The combination of -sch is not the same as in German, it's not pronounced the same, isn't it? Not [sh] but...something like [sx], i'm not sure. ([x] a bit like German 'ch')
The Netherlands opened their borders to Polish workers a few years ago, I think it was on the 1st of January 2006, but I'm not sure about the date. So they are welcome to work there as far as I know.
Polson
IJ sounds like the English I, or indeed ai, yes. SCH is to be pronounced as a combination of an S and a hard G (the dreaded hard G in Dutch) - a bit like "ch" in Polish...as in Kocham, or the way they say "Hallo" when picking up the phone. School would be pronounced as "Sgol" (the "o" being pronounced as a long O as in the English "cold". CH is ALWAYS pronounced as a hard G. Try: Acht (8), Schijn (fake) or Schuin (skewed) Echt (real or really) UI (onion), Keuken (kitchen), Uit (out).
These are not even the hardest combinations :) Try: EU (a bit like the U in "Highbury"; UI (actually, I can't think of an equivalent sound in English - try the Polish word for Lion, Lew, it comes close)
That's the point. There are supposed to be around 100.000, but where are they? I saw perhaps a handful in my parent's village, but ok, that is a small village. But they are supposed to be there...KvK registrations suggest that tens of thousands have started their own one-man company in NL. So I just wanna hear from them :) So I can tell them to get the *peep* out like RN does with the Poles in Ireland :))))) (just kidding)
I though you had a little extortion part time business on the side to be honest:). % of Pole's wage goes to the M-G "charity" fund or something like that;)
"Dus niettegenstaande, dat het herstructureringsplan van de gemeente Tietjerksteradeel scrabreus afgewezen was, en er weinig hoopgevende signalen waren van dat het ooit zou lukken om het één en ander er door te krijgen, gaven de heren van het herstructureringsplan bureau niet op. Integendeel, ze werkten vlijtig aan nieuwe ideeën, die ter meerdere glorie en zelfgenoegzaamheid der wonderschone gemeente bij zouden gaan dragen."
I never claimed that I understood Hungarian :) But indeed, I don't believe you, so I will translate :)
"Dus niettegenstaande, dat het herstructureringsplan van de gemeente Tietjerksteradeel scrabreus afgewezen was, en er weinig hoopgevende signalen waren van dat het ooit zou lukken om het één en ander er door te krijgen, gaven de heren van het herstructureringsplan bureau niet op. Integendeel, ze werkten vlijtig aan nieuwe ideeën, die ter meerdere glorie en zelfgenoegzaamheid der wonderschone gemeente bij zouden gaan dragen."
"So, despite the fact that the rezoning plan of the municipality of Tietjerksteradeel shockingly was dismissed and there was little hope (lit.: there were not many signals of hope) to push things through, the gentlemen of the rezoning office didn't give up. On the contrary, dilligently they worked on new ideas that would contribute to the glory and the complacency of the marvellous beauty of the municipality."
The trick with Dutch that some words in certain sentences are being "broken up": the example you mention, "opgaven" which should be "opgeven" is in this sentence broken up (in the past tense = opgaven): "gaven de heren niet op" Compare: Wij geven niet op, wij gaven niet op, and: zullen we opgeven? (transl: we don't give up, we didn't give up and shall we give up?)
The other one in this sentense is: Bijdragen (contribute). "Bij zouden gaan dragen" (would contribute).
You were close, but I'd recommend you follow a few extra classes before you go find yourself a job as Dutch teacher :D
I know greek men who travel to Netherlands to participate in gang bangs.(I suspect that some women travel there for the same reason).And of course everyone enjoys the benefits of narcotourism.
I actually meant ppl who live and work in NL. There is a bit more to NL than just sex and drugs (and sometimes rock and roll). Although ppl will soon find out as the Red Light district in A'dam is scheduled to be closed down in 3 years from now and they also plan to shut down most (if not all) of the coffeeshops in the city.
About Greek men: the first recorded homosexuals in history were Greek men, did you know that?
Poles from the netherlands wouldn't be posting here since Polish is not allowed. Most Poles in the Netherlands might know some basic English (or they might not).
And it's not easy to learn Dutch in Poland so most won't write in Dutch either. The little I've seen of writings by Poles in the Netherlands indicates that it's difficult to find language classes even in the Netherlands. I seem to recall that that's always been a problem for immigrants, even ones that want to assimilate find it difficult to try.
A few seconds googling did find some forums, but they're all in Polish.
Finally, I have the impression that most Poles in the Netherlands are working in all Polish environments and not in the kinds of positions where they come into contact with many Netherlanders.
Poles in my opinion probably feel a bit more relaxed in Holland ( compared do UK and that lonely green island on the left side of Britain ;) ).Reason for this is simples( meerkat copyright) -memories of the last war still present among people, Dutch at least know how war was look like from inside and underestand why Poles do what they do at the moment, I mean temporarily migrate. So I think they are fine in tulip country.
You got a good point there. I wonder if it could also be that it's so much easier to visit relatives in the Motherland as they only have to jump into their car, drive about 800 to 1000 km and then are there?
Edit: thanks for the nice classifacation "Tulip Country" - like that :) And I've heard that Polish girls seem to have taken a liking for Dutch boys as they are tall and so on. Did you know that the Dutch news already has a Polish female newsreader? Granted, she's been in NL for over a decade, but I don't see that happen in Ireland or the UK shortly.
you are right, just couple hours ( 5-6 max) by car and ...welome again mum dad or cheeky girlfriend, no hassle with fares, no customs on the border ( UK and Ireland are not Schengen group )
as the Red Light district in A'dam is scheduled to be closed down in 3 years from now and they also plan to shut down most (if not all) of the coffeeshops in the city.
Pity.
the first recorded homosexuals in history were Greek men, did you know that?
Of course.Our homos are still proud of that.(not that the pharao did not give his ass to ladyboys).
I think actually Plato wrote that eros between men is superior to common love between a man and a woman.Sokrates had relationships with many of his students like Alkiviades,the most handsome man,the lover for the women and the beloved by men.
Bit off topic, but ok: There was a stone found in Greece, which was dated about 2500 (or more, not quite sure) with inscriptions written in a curl. After decyphering it read: "Here it was where Andros did it with Janos who did it with Leandros", etc. I made the names up myself as I cannot remember what they were, but it describes a homosexual "orgy" of about 2500 to 3000 years ago. I think there were 8 to 10 names on there and there was no mistake about what they were doing there. Can't remember the name of the stone and where in Greece it was found.
pharao
I once saw a documentary about the sacred rituals of Carnac in Egypt. A ritual performed solely by the Pharao and only aided by his wife. Turnes out that the "sacred" ritual was nothing but his wife masturbating him while both were chanting and praying to Osiris or whatever Egyptian god :))
Edit: so far for sexual history of the acient Greek and Egyptians, ok? :)
Edit2: back to topic: Southern, the fact that they are closing down the Red Light District and most of the coffeeshops in A'dam has to do with the fact that the city of Amsterdam wants to clean up their act and desires a "clean image". Nonsense, but that's their reasoning. However, if that is what you're looking for, you can still go to Rotterdam or The Hague as this policy is not a nationwide policy, only in Amsterdam. And besides, personally, I like the girls from The Hague better than the ones from Amsterdam (no, I am NOT talking about the prositutes)
>^..^<
M-G (homosexuality, older than you think)
and probably the first recorded condemnation of homosexuality as unnatural, by Plato.
Actually, the condemnation of homosexuals was introduced with the introduction of Christian and Islamic faith. Not sure about Judaism, but I'm sure that there is something about the subject somewhere in the Tora. Before we put ourselves in the straightjacket of following the words of some old and bitter geezers, homosexuality was condoned and tolerated.
