Smoking ban in Polish bars and restaurants (AT LAST!)

What I found out of interest is that there are bylaws which state that if a place is 100 metres or over, you can introduce a segregation policy like what was seen in Pizza Hut here 4 years ago. The law appears black/white but there are loopholes to be circumvented.

Also, I introduced my own dimension to things. Smoking is a form of expression and was a legally permissible activity in pubs/clubs for so long. I raised the point that graffits artists, largely helped by Banksy, got what they wanted in the form of designated graffiti walls. Smokers will likely make a play for smoke shops or use their intelligence to get round the law in some way.

The civil rights part was taken too subjectively by them. I encouraged objectivity but they were against smoking and therefore didn't care too much about the social failure dimension. By that I mean that society actively encouraged smoking for so long through advertising and it also kept it legal to lay bare the possibility that people would become addicted. Now these frickin snakes are advertising 24/7 in an attempt to wean people off of their nicotine dependence. Those pharmaceutical companies are devious sods! If I were a smoker, I would be peeved too. You can't just take away an age-old tradition of smoking and drinking in bars. Some pubs may lose out as a result.

There was more that emerged from the discussion but I will leave it at that for now. Plenty to get the teeth into.

Any comments on unfair competitive advantage to large establishments?


Yesterday it was business as usual, with the addition of no smoking signs taped up. Ashtrays on every table :)

Strongly implied, that's for sure!

Aw, the ashtray. That's resistance and rebellion for ya! :)

the rebellion is apparently well on its way :)

I just wonder what form of smoking they have in mind. Probably not ciggies ;)

Yeah, screw the rights of everybody else to breath clean air. You smoke, I get cancer thats my freedom, eh?

I have a tradition, its called self defense, someone trys to kill me I'll defend myself with a baseball bat in a smokers face.

Cheers!

Seriously, Bar owners will now have unlimited liabilty for the effects of smoke on their employee's and customers. Just walking into a room where smokers have been is classified as a health risk. I somehow doubt that the police will not start enforce the law with the possibilty of easy money, my wife was fined for smoking near a bus stop, FFS.

At least it's sth for free ;) ;)

You can wear a mask ;)

What is your position on the reduction of harmful emissions btw? Are you taking a stand on that too?

And whiny non-smokers have absolutely no liability for the effects their inability to not go to dangerous places has on the bank balances of bar owners and bar staff. People will lose their jobs and people will go bankrupt as a result of this ban. But that's OK: as long as non-smokers have the right to ruin bar culture in Poland, everything is all right, eh?


With an attitude like yours, I'm not surprised that you get beaten up by smokers so often.

Pubs being dangerous places? I thought I could relax in them. Sorry, Harry, not my idea of leisure.


WTF?! About 80% of Polish society does not smoke. Should it adjust to the addicted, biased minority?!
Harry


Typical attitude of an addict. Are you one, Harry?

youtube.com/watch?v=nr8Jw-VYflY

What some thing like this?

They used to be absolutely lethal places, what with people smoking in them.


Actually it is less than 70% of Poles who do not smoke but I guess it is too much to expect whiny non-smokers to tell the truth about anything connected to them getting their own way. And as to your 'point' 65% of Poles do not own cars but they still have to adjust their lives to the selfish minority who insist on giving everybody else cancer.


No I don't smoke. I just have no tolerance for people who try to dicate to adults what they can and can not do on their own property. Can I come round to your flat, shiit in the corner and then tell you that you can't complain about it?

Here you go smokers, this one's on me...

youtube.com/watch?v=MAk8QvttHnk

Ok. I read your source, thanks. Here is an excerpt from yoursource:
"33.5% of adult men (5.2 million) and 21.0 of adult women (3.5 million) smoked tobacco every day"
- That gives 5.2+3.5 = 8.7 mln people. That's what? Bit over 22 % of society.


No, as a matter of fact you cannot. But allow me to continue your beautiful metaphor: It's the smokers who come to a place, shite and then demand that everyone smells it. That's bad enough. But it's not all: their "shite" is releasing poison (smoke, fumes) and they don't seem to mind that the majority does inhale their s hitty fumes! The only ones that make this s hit are the smokers, not other way round.

About the property, adults and their ownership: I'd agree, only that these are special private places open to... public. And up until now there was "toxic" smoke in them. End of story. Smokers - outside, fresh air - inside.

Whiny non-smoker. Got a life time of that ahead of you to complain.

Let me use the argument smokers have used for the last 200 years; If you don't like it, F*** off.

I've spend my life have whiny smokers shitting in my face. Now the boot's on the other foot - screw you.

Heh :)


No one forces you to go to private establishments where the owners allow smoking, why in god's name would you go to a place that had an environment that you didn't like? It was a free country, you could go wherever you want. Choosing to go somewhere and then claiming some sort of oppression is hilarious. The boot is definitely on the foot alright.

- But smokers invade also the public space too, not only private. This law hopefully will get things to normal. So maybe smokers should form some smoking clubs, and stop whining.

Public spaces should be open to the tyranny of the majority, fair enough...but private spaces shouldn't. My argument way back during the opening shots of this thread :)


Fair enough, then allow bar owners to convert their places into private smoking clubs. They already had that choice in the past, and that was legislated away...

Agreed.

- Exactly that is how democracy works. Sorry. I'm usually not even in favour of this, but just this one time it works for me...


I see your point, really do, but now, I can happily visit your bar! Ain't that a good news! ;)


I have nothing against it, I think. But doing this, you'll loosse clients too. And in the long run (it's just the firs week of the ban) you will find out not much has changed, and there will not be a drop-down to most places. Is your place in the basement by the way?

Then what's the problem? I don't mind it turned around as well, because it still makes the point I've been backing the entire time. If I were a smoker, I wouldn't whine about going to a bar where the owner decided to ban smoking. I would just go to a smoking bar...you know, like it's always been. If the owner decides to ban or allow smoking, why should I tell them how to run their business? I'll vote with my wallet, it's a great system which doesn't require any additional investment, no additional policing, and no unfair competitive advantage to bars which can afford to be compliant with the new law. Best of all, it's been around forever and you can use it in every situation in life instead of having to wait for some big daddy to legislate it.


Right, which is fair enough for public places. Bus stops, even parks (as ridiculous as that is), sidewalks, streets...But in private places, property rights are sacred and legislation restricting them should be weighed very carefully. I don't believe this issue qualifies as "being important enough to further dilute property rights".


We allow smoking. You're welcome to pop by.


In all the studies which have been undertaken, large chain bars either continue along, business as usual, or see a slight upswing in business. Small bars take a heavy hit.

No, it's ground floor in the middle of Diocletian's Palace.

As you know all bars have to allow smoking otherwise some of their custom would dissaper. So a 'optional' ban is no such thing. Meanwhile the employees and non-smokers are subjected to smoke and the bar owner is legally resposible for the health effects to his staff and customers. Any bar owner who banned smoking and gave a **** about his customers and staff would be in a very poor competative position.

Its a riduculous situation and its why smoking has been banned by the EU.

The point of debat has long since past, so now its just whining.


Where is it?

Right, so if more non smokers would go to non smoking bars, owners would see a market and implement non smoking laws voluntarily. I would.

The health argument is a straw man (I call him Healthicus). I sell alcohol to my customers. I'm a legal drug dealer. Alcohol kills more innocent people than second hand smoke. The health argument is only used because it backs your position of vilifying something you don't like. You want nanny regulation because you don't like cigarette smoke at the places you chose to go to, fair enough. I don't think it's needed, and believe that people that have a problem with smoke should support non smoking bars with their wallets. That's the argument.


In Split, on Nepotova in the Palace.

How do you recognize them?
And you do know that the vast majority of people don't smoke? So why haven't you done it already, wha'cha waiting for? I wouldn't say that pub frequenters are only smokers.

By watching the business done in non smoking bars/non smoking sections of bars...and believe it or not, comments from the patrons.


Because non smokers apparently don't go to non smoking bars in droves. The non smoking places here in Wroclaw don't do as well as the places that allow smoking. Strange considering your comment about those vast majorities :)

That's simple peer pressure, I think.

that's the same as where i live in the US... i don't know why, if Americans smoke much less then Poles...

Why is it that whiny non-smokers have to lie? Oh yes, it's because they have no argument when they tell the truth. The exact quote from the source is "Overall, 30,3% of Poles (9.8 million) are current (daily or occasional) smokers". So your claim about it being a "bit over 22%" is just another lie from you.


If you don't like it, get off my land. Oh sorry, I forgot that you think that you have the right to go on my land and tell me what I can and can not do on it. Excuse me while I come round your house and take your car to bits so you can't poison me by driving it.


Which is why since the UK introduced its smoking ban more pubs per week have been going out of business than at any time in history. But it's all good, as long as whiny non-smokers get their way.

But bear in mind that the difference in price between supermarket and pub booze is probably at its highest ever - how the hell can pubs cope when a pint costs about 6 times less at home? There's also the pubco factor - the whole industry has far more problems than just the smoking ban.

Whenever I go back to UK, I always have a chat with the landlords and staff of my old regular haunts. They're clear that while supermarket booze does have an impact on their trade, it's the smoking ban that has really done the damage. Supermarkets in the UK have been selling pretty cheap booze for decades now but the smoking ban is recent and the decimation of pubs is recent: in 2006 the UK lost 2 pubs per week; in 2009 it was 52 pubs per week. Smoking ban came in July 2007.

I think there should be bars for smokers as it has been part of things for quite some time. To deny them is unfair.