Russian air traffic controllers ignored communication protocol of Polish pilots?

of course! Take it for what it's worth, until the official word. I does fit with other pieces, to me anyway.

The terrain dips about 300m out and then slopes back up.

I've never visited Smolensk - need to ask local people.

Ekidan with all due respect, lets not blame the pilots as we don't know all the facts.

I just found this thread and must say I was surprised the controllers did not use English. You and I know that whenever a foreign aircraft flies into your airspace the Russian controllers switch to English. I fly into Japan and often we'll take the Petropavlovsk route (I live in the US) and although most of the communication is in Russian as soon as we check in the controllers switch to English.

I also find your post somewhat contradictory. You said - correctly may I add - "...The Aircraft Commander has primary responsibility for ensuring the safety of the aircraft and ATC is a purely advisory service..." followed by "...I'm afraid the Russians only tried to help by strongly advising the crew to divert... but did the Polish listen..."

Like you said, the ATC is strictly of advisory service (unless the runway is blocked, etc.) and IF according to their ops-specs the minimums were legal (don't know what they were) they should've attempted that approach and if no runway was in sight either give it another try or divert to the alternate.

What's confusing is why they got that low and hopefully the investigation will reveal that.

Furthermore, I find it very disturbing that you, a pilot, puts the blame squarely on other pilots before you (and I) know all the facts. I've often defended Russian pilots when I'd hear a conversation about a Russian airline's accident/incident. As soon as I'd hear, well, those were Russian pilots so they're probably drunk, etc., I'd say, back off - they were pilots too like you and I and unless we know the facts they were all innocent until proven guilty.

It's OK to speculate but let's not put the blame on those pilots until the investigation is complete. Moreover, lets be pilots first and foremost. If I ever hear a distress signal form a Russian aircraft requesting our assistance I guarantee you we will do everything we can to help out. I'd expect the same from you. Right now, let's do it for the crew that's not here to defend themselves anymore. Facts before emotions.

Signed
B744 pilot
PS (have time in both 732 and 737 models, I enjoyed the guppy, I'm sure you do too)


HUH??? I know it's an "old" post but Olga, seriously...

Even with mil controllers?

Signed
TB10 pilot
PS on his way to Romania

My understanding is that unless the airport to be used can accommodate English speaking controllers that airport should not offer a foreign aircraft a landing permission. That includes a military airport. Now, I understand that some controllers at smaller Russian airports struggle with their English and pilots of foreign airlines who have Russian speaking pilots allow the switch simply for safety reasons. Either way, it's surprising.

Who knows what happened there but the sheer amount of speculation (on both sides may I add) is amazing.

Hope you'l catch some nice tailwinds on your way to Romania. ;)


What does age have to do with anything? Seriously. It's about experience and if a person starts his/her training in early twenties that person will probably be more proficient than a pilot who started his/her flying career when he/she was in his/her thirties. I've seen both.

Also, I used to do some simulator training and you'd be surprised how often those we "assumed" would be on top of their game were in fact still on the runway when the airplane was about to reach the cruising altitude. Figurative speaking of course.

Age has zero, nada to do with a person's proficiency - it's based on experience. ...and often age and experience are not co-related.


Have you ever participated in a debate without including something about the 9/11 conspiracies? I'm not trying to be disrespectful Seanus, I really am not but has it ever happened?


All very good points!

It was the perfect analogy in this case. Russia has learned that blatant wrongdoing can be covered up by using official power to distort. Simple!

You're beginning to mimic Wildrover. Have some class--it was a legitimate debate at the time, since that's what had been reported.

I'm not sure what Wildrover's positions are but I was reacting to your "it's aviation 101 comment". You said "The pilot knew they are in deep s**t, and this was a last-ditch desperate attempt to survive crash landing. Aviation 101." and frankly nothing could've been further from the truth. To initiate fuel dumping (which takes time) right before an anticipated crash landing (we prefer the term emergency landing ;) would be the worst thing one could do. Pretty much a guaranteed post-landing fire.

Fuel dumping usually takes place at altitude, 10,000 feet or above to let the fuel evaporate before it reaches the ground.

This is what it looks like by the way...
youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HL1x33iebtg

Didn't mean to sound disrespectful but I guess my reply could be perceived that way and if so, my apologies.

I'm sure you've seen from my previous posts that I'm very skeptical when it comes to dealing with the Russian government. I really think though that it'd behoove all of us to give the Russians the benefit of a doubt, at least for now, until the investigation is complete.

Otherwise we all sound like a bunch of Russophobes and frankly I think Poles are better than that. Even Ronald Reagan said - trust but verify. Notice - the trust came before the verify...

So again, sorry if I sounded demeaning toward you, not my intention. Overall you and I hold similar views which is to be suspicious of the Russians - history proves that viewpoint. However, we should also give them a chance to investigate this matter.


Well, that's your view which of course I strongly disagree with but it's your right and I respect that. I just got to a point where if I see a new thread I'm looking for at least one anti-Jewish reference from Pilsudski and one 9/11 reference from you. I'll leave you alone now although I must say I wish conspiracy theorists such as yourself would be more open-minded sometimes... I too am critical of the government but skepticism and blind hate combined with distrust are very different things.

I'm not saying there was a conspiracy here outright, skysoulmate, I'm merely saying that they gleaned insight from 9/11. Look back at what I have written in the various threads on Smolensk. They broadly support the official line. I'm just saying there are seeds of doubt to be explored. Blind hate? Not on my part for sure. I'm just going where the evidence leads me. I have nothing against Russia, the Soviets yes.

It’s about 260 meters.

I’m used to the US altimetry and to as a rule of thumb => 1 inch “error” on the altimeter setting equals 1,000 feet.

I converted the millibar (hPa) settings to our settings.

995.6hPa = 29.4 inHg
1025.5hPa = 30.28 inHg

30.28 – 29.4 = 0.88 inches of mercury difference or ~ 880 feet which is 268 meters.

Convex, I’m really tired so please make sure I got it right.

All along I’ve wondered if there was confusion using the correct altimeter setting procedures. Most countries use a system where after landing your altimeter will show the local field elevation. Which in this case, Smolensk North after landing your altimeter would show 820 feet or 250 meters. In Russia however, often they use a system where after landing the altimeter will read zero (hope this makes sense). So if using wrong setting the altitude would be off by 250 meters. This is just a speculation on my part; the actual reasons to this crash could be totally different…


I see your point and what perplexes me is that so many of your comments are really intelligent. Yet your 9/11 conspiracy fixation is just strange. So the hate comment pertained to the US government, not the soviet/Russian government.

I'm as skeptical as it gets, all my friends will vouch for me on that. I've reviewed all kinds of 9/11 conspiracies and they're all full of holes. Huge gigantic holes. I'm yet to meet an airline pilot who thinks 9/11 was a government insider job, or something similar. ...and if you find one, he/she does not have a medical certificate as lunacy is a grounding condition for us. Stalin must be rolling over in his grave from laughter knowing his regime helped to create such an anti-American paranoia, years and years after his death. Oh well, enough about that, let's get back to arguing with Ruskies. ;)

Let's keep in mind, however, that the pilot and crew had flown to Russia many times before, and had been at that very airport only 3 days earlier.

True Olga but let's keep in mind that I've flown into Malaysia many times (just an example) and I'd lie if I said I've never made a mistake. Likewise my buddy who's been an Atlanta ATC controller for the last 15 years has made mistakes and some pretty recent ones.

My point is that humans make human errors but once again I'm not accusing the pilots nor the ATC controllers as we simply don't have all the facts.

Unless you fly within Russia day in and day out their altimetry procedures can get confusing sometimes. Errors are usually recognized early on however it's certainly an area of extra caution.

Hmm...I dislike the previous US government but I certainly don't hate them like others do. I'm no flag burner! I have thunderbolts much bigger than those 'holes' you claim to find, sky.

As for Smolensk, surely we should have been much closer to full clarification by now!?