Russian air traffic controllers ignored communication protocol of Polish pilots?

It does not have to be the insinuating "false report of repeated landing attempts". It may be that witnesses saw him circling. After that, it might have been just a wrong altimeter setting. Before I look for evil, I try to remember that people are just human. Mistakes happen.

Eyewitness account of crash with actual video of plane:
...

Notice boy's video camera--and pause here. Where is the fog??? How could boy have seen power lines in thick fog??? Clear blue skies! All news footage of crash site is taken at later time, near end of day, with thick smoke from burning plane filling the sky--not fog! Remember, hours passed before reporters even arrived at crash site.

What plane is this camera showing?
Do you see red markings?


Visibility was 400 meters. More than enough to see power lines. The boys are locals, they could have known where the power lines are. You can tell where the lines are also because you know where the power line towers/poles are.

Do we know know for a fact that the picture in the camera is the boys' camera? They never mention anything about the camera. Neither do the interviewers. Is the plane shown the very plane that crashed? Can you see red markings? Or is it a flick of another plane. Perhaps taken days before?

Also, fog density is not always uniform and in fact it is often thicker at ground level. Looking up you may see blue skies, while looking forward you may see little to nothing. I drive through for at times. In hilly areas there will be patches of fog and patches of clear air. Sometimes I have to slow down to a crawl because the fog is very thick but the sun and the skies are clearly visible. On occasion I will see no fog on eye level but looking up... lotsa fog. Or would you call that low ceiling?

From the plane the picture may look completely different. The fog has no background light (the Sun) as it does when you look upwards. Hence the fog density fro above will apear higher.


Not really. Jet fuel and contents of the plane (synthetic materials) don't give out bright smoke. The smoke should be dark. The foggy background is not. Also notice the sun setting during the interview with the boys. The angle of the Sun at this point causes it to be behind the thickest possible layer of fog (horizontal view) and yet you can clearly see the Sun.

Take a look at the same interview here starting at 0:08.
youtube.com/watch?v=8OytAQFCkFs
The view shows where the plane came from, not where it crashed. That is shown later. Are the boys and the interviewers standing in the epicenter of the crash and fog appears to be around them? A few hours later after the crews arrived and cordoned off the area? There seems to be little wind and it blows from the Northerly direction (look at the smoke). The 0:08 in the flick I linked to shows Eastern, Norther and Western part of the scene. The fog, not smoke is everywhere. If the Wind is blowing from the North then there should be no fog/smoke to the right of the main scene, and hardly any in the Eastern part of the scene. And yet the backg roung looks smoggy? Would you suggest that KGB glued the smoke to the Northern part of the scene? Or perhaps they are blowing it from a machine in co-operation with The Hollywood?

I don't know whether someone "helped" the plane crash and neither do you. Your theory based on a youtube flick is very far fetched and in parts clearly wrong. You want to find a proof the Russians did it so guess what! You'll find it even in the way the journalist is holding the microphone, or in the way the twigs are moving with the breeze.

Wait and see. For now the only roof you offered is that of your obsession.

You are so far out to lunch on Pluto la-la land it's pathetic, android. Look up definition...automaton that mimics human in resemblance. You can thank your state-sponsored propaganda for that. Human vegetable.

And yet you have not addressed any of my counter arguments. Not one. All you do is spit at anybody who dares put you in your place.

Is that cabbage inside your skull not working at all?

Facts:
1) Eyewitness accounts testify to dumping of fuel.
2) Dumping of fuel is indicative of instrument failure.
3) Instrument failures result in crashes/crash landings (if you're lucky)
4) Russian media has been monopolizing and dictating what information is released.
5) Nothing has been heard from Polish investigation.
6) Easy to blame pilot. Dead men can't talk.
7) Video clearly shows stories of fog are grossly exaggerated.
8) Putin is front and center of this investigation.
9) Putin has much to gain from this tragedy.
10) Cabbage has suffocated YOUR brain.

What cabbage you are talking about? Wash your mouth with soap. ;)

"Polish plane's voice recordings 'dramatic'...when their plane crashed in dense fog"
thestar.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=5430704

Dense fog, my ass. Something else is dense.
youtube.com/watch?v=PFOvLvykQhs

where are the pics of the downed lines/tower?

if there were no technical difficulties did the pilot ignore pull up warnings

what up with the little Jagr mullets

double check the double locked safe for a trap door

"Scent of Shale Gas Hangs Over Katyn"

themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/scent-of-shale-gas-hangs-over-katyn/403877.html

Interesting article, Olga, thanks! The thing is, we will never know the full truth after investigations. The Omission Report in 9/11 shows that clearly. SB could have talked all those people into going, knowing full well what their fate was. However, it just seems a bit far fetched in this case. Was it vital landing gear that is said to have been stripped or what?

well, polish nation seem to be a nation of slaves... and sheep

they were told the "official version truth" by the russians all the time since 1940 about Katyn... that the germans did assasinate there their top elite officers...

and now they are waiting like sheep to be fed with more propaganda, that it was "pilot error" of course...

and ignore that any pilot can easily land on any weather conditions, even ice, snow and minus 25 degrees... and this happens thousands of times each day all over the world

and ignore that even if the plane is polish, the black boxes were CONFISCATED by the russians and not released

let's just wait and all blindly believe whatever russian official version will tell us... we are sheep

Healthy cynicism I'd say. It's all about maneuvering and gestures and Putin is very good at it. The romanticism of the Poles is often their downfall. There are some pragmatic people here who see what is going on but many are jumping headlong into forging new ties with Russia. I applaud the sentiment but it has to be marked with caution.

Your remark means that if bloody Russians did it - they failed (and could't be saccessfull) - they can't fool people like you, are they?

But if we take a look on another version from opposite paranoids:
Mr Kaczynski was sacrificed by somebody interested to destroy progress in relations betwen Russia and Poland/EU because he failed to do that and became "useless" alive. - This "somebody" succeed and get you trapped...

So the fog was so think the boys couldn't see the power lines but people could see dumping of fuel?


If you actually listened to the media you would have known what Polish investigators are saying. And they are not as quick with their judgement as you after a few seconds of a youtube flick.


Not an argument. We don't know who's at fault yet.


Not at all. Various video clips, taken at various times show various densities of fog. You just need to want to see.


Not a proof of foul play


So do, among others, the following:
Poland, US, IMF, Pharmaceutical companies, any number of Western countries and heck, even some users of this forum.

Tell you what I think.
You are way too zelous in all this. I'm sure you are a KGB instigator.
You traitor!!!

Oh, and you still haven't addressed any of the points I describe in response to your incorrect analysis of the yt flick.


So you think Kaczynski was on that plane as a result of Poland's belief in the soviet version of Katyn? Anybody who thinks this is true has no idea about Poles, and is completely blind.

Given the weather conditions at the time its possible what the witnesses saw was vapour trails coming off the wings...looks a whole lot like fuel dumping...which if you have been paying attention on this thread you will know its not possible for this aircraft to do....

I'm still leaning toward the idea that the pilot was "encouraged" to operate outside of the reasonable envelope of safety.
I am very curious to know if there was functioning ILS equipment present at Smolensk the week prior when Vlad the Putin landed there... and, if so, what happened to it?

There ia a rumor that it was mobile and was removed soon after 7th of April. This airbase has very basic safety equipment by itself.

Mr Zhirinovskii in Russian Duma claimed that Russia didn't care enough for this visit.

But it wasn't something unexpected for Polish visitors. From my point of veiw the risk level was too high for any VIPs visit. Plus this foggy weather.

I was told that there is no ILS, as this airstrip is just recently "converted" from military airbase.

Another airport near Smolensk (Smolensk-South) is now defunct, and technically can accept only light regional planes, too short strip, ancient navigation aids. It was planned to be modernized sometime around 2011 to be usable for modern jets.

where did you hear/see that? (regardless of credibility... sometimes the origins can be tracked down and thus validated or negated)

Is this technically possible at all?

No idea.

Yes, google:
AN/CRN-2 (from WWII)
AN/TRN-45 (MMLS)
D-ILS (Deployable ILS)...

....spent 10 years in the Air Force - RADAR (Radio Detection and Ranging), EW (Electronic Warfare), AC&W (Aerospace Control and Warning Systems), GCI (Ground Controlled Intercept), ACT/DACT, FACP, ASRT, ROMAD, G-FAC... yeeeeaaaahhhh! (god, I am SO gald to out of the world of acronyms and nomenclatures ;-)

...stuff like that...
NOT ATC (Air Traffic Control)... kinda the opposite... instead of keeping birds apart... we put 'the good guys' on target... if you catch my drift...

Mobile or deployable ILS... pretty much child's play these days (depending on the required level of precision/safety/application needed)... personally, I prefer my trusty ol' GPS ;-)

BTW, just Googled/Wiki'd Smolensk airstrip; looks like it's abou tthe size of a regional airstrip in the States... hell, the Russians even had IL-76's (50-ton transporters) staioned there until last fall... hmmm....


I assume we are talking about XUBS (the Airbase)... not LNX (nearby civilian Airport - which was too small for a TU-154)

They are still there - but unlikely in working condition (I mean they are on conservation).

Take a look on the resent satellite image: And some images of this unfortunate landing trajectory :(

One tried to land earlier that morning and went back to Moscow.

You can see those ILs on sat photo. Locals told that some of them is already somewhat parted (maybe those nearing end of their flight resource, or how max. limit of flight hours and landings can be correctly named in English).

I was really surprised why such city as Smolensk does not have decent airport. Asked my friend who born near Smolensk... Answer was simple - almost no demand.

Smolensk is not so far from Moscow, main hub in european Russia. And there is lots of trains, both direct Smolensk-Moscow and passing (Warsaw, Berlin, Vilnius, Minsk, Brest, etc...). You can come to railway station and get ticket to nearest train, day or night. In about 6 hours you are almost in center of Moscow.

With plane (especially with all that modern security measures) it would take about 3-3.5 hours to get to VNO or DME, and then add at least one hour to reach center of Moscow or at least 2-2.5 hours during daytime to reach SVO. Almost no gain in time, weather dependant and more expensive than train.

a quote:
of a quote:
From Russian forums:

"I listened to the CVR tape today. To be more precise - the last 20 minutes.
The Polish prosecutor was right, the final is dramatic. They understood EVERYTHING during the last 5 seconds...

The most interesting is another thing. Fog... visibility... navigation... Bulls''t! According to what I heard in the last 20 minutes, they would have landed in Smolensk even if there was a herd of cows or the Saint Mary herself on the runway!

No one from the cabin told anything to them (at least, it is not on the tape). Seems, they understood themselves, how important that was. And twice asked "Are we in time?..."

They were in a big hurry. Never discussed the possibility to divert. It was their first approach, visual."

If that is true, I think I'll drop a couple of tears at how avoidable all this was.

Polish AF will have some serious reflection time ahead of them.

and then there's this:

..quoted an airport employee as saying: "We are all guilty of this tragedy. We cannot only blame the pilots.
"Because of the bad weather conditions, we should have closed the airport. But we could not do it because the Poles would have seen it as a diplomatic scandal."

sounds a little like: "certain unnamed sources said..." still can't completely buy that one... particularly from a Russian... in the system (I've had some experience with Russians and Eastern Ukraininans explaining to me their version of Polish history - and I'm not even Polish ;-)

On the other hand, a young, hot-shot, indestructible, ueber-pilot isn't beyond the realm of possibilities either (remember what happened to the last pilot who said "no")...

To Jed: thanks for the graphics; lots of good info/details there.. has got me thinkin'... can you tell if there's a rise just east of that secondary road (the 'loop' just east of the main highway)? Looks like the trees got clipped a lot shorter there...