4th Polish Republic may re-emerge

The evidence is staring you in the face - an ex AK man enjoyed a meteoric rise at the start of the PRL, being trusted to carry out major work in the American embassy and managing to get his children in movies.

That - simply - didn't happen to just anyone.

But that's only something you thought up. We need LINKS, HARD DOCUMENTED FACTS, DATES, PLACES, NAMES , IPN DOCUMENTS... All we are asking for are some reliable links.

Those documents are long gone. I mean, seriously, according to the IPN not a single government employee ever put down on paper even the slightest suspicion that DuckBoy is gay: are we really supposed to believe that the files haven't been fixed?

If you've got no LINKS, HARD DOCUMENTED FACTS, DATES, PLACES, NAMES, etc. why are you spouting off?

Oh, but there are plenty of documented facts and names and dates etc. The problem is that you wish to interpret those facts in a way that the nonsensical. Apparently you'd have us believe the post-war commies allowed DaddyDuck to go from AK fighter to highly-trusted and favoured comrade with a very desirable residence because they were very nice men. The reality is different. But of course it's no surprise that you appear to have forgotten about the benefits of collaborating.

this "residence" was a flat in a nearly destroyed during a war town house that Rajmund and other residents renovated by themselves.

Let's see some. Put your money where your mouth is.

And how did he manage to get a nice large town house apartment when others were struggling for any sort of accommodation for years?

Perhaps someone better acquainted with Warsaw can tell us - was Zoliborz a nice place between the wars?


Of course they would. We all know how they embraced AK men and women and most definitely never tortured/killed many of them. In fact, while they were busy torturing and dealing with former AK fighters, he was studying!

No, she wasn't. Neither was my father. From what I know not one person from my family (close- I have no idea about the rest) has ever joined PZPR.

As to the IV RP- I think we really have to notice that it was marvelous slogan- short, catchy and undefined.

Stop the personal journeys- I think we are all sick and tired of that. If you have some issues- go to Random. It's a beautiful space where all are free to make as many off-topic posts as one wants

And treasonous.

Lenka - Got some way of redirecting all the nonsense to Random chats? The constant baiting and goading by a certiain expat threesome or foursome who act like they own the place is getting tiresome. They waste people's time and energy by engaging in mean-spirited backbiting and take nearly every thread off topic. There are so many things to discuss in a clam, amicable manner without constantly questioning a poster's sicnerity, challenging him to a verbal duel or trying to psychoanalyse him/her.

Indeed.

Unless we consider that the IV Republic was really about feathering one's nest. After all, the architects of the IV Republic knew all about that from previous times.

I don't really consider it treason- it was just an image created to attract ppl. Noone really wanted to overthrow the state.

You mean that 'IV RP' was just another way of saying 'Teraz *** My'? If so, you are almost certainly correct.

I don't know Lenka, if you listen to the talk of 'revolution' and so on, it seems clear what they had/have in mind.

It would be interesting, although scary, to see them try. But as it is- it's just a slogan

The concept of the 4th republic is easy to grasp but I will not explain here for X time. Most Poles are political zombies and cannot be even bother to vote and majority of those who vote are motivated too much by fear.

They are easy scared off.
I guess they will be rotting and festering long in the Polish bog.
Although I don't understand what foreigners are doing in that equation. Probably nestling their own niches.

Yes, because if one is looking for a couple of 12 yo male twins with some talent to act, there are millions to choose from :))

That's not really an argument Iron. I could easily call PiS voters names but what kind of argument is it? My first problem is with the fact that this idea denies all that happened in the last 23 years. No real debate about what was good and what was wrong- that's not too smart in my opinion

Indeed there have been some very low turnouts during elections. The biggest turnout in recent years however was when people came out to vote in order to get rid of that gang of undesirables who were promoting a 'fourth republic'.

Do you remember that day, Ironside? Do you?

So what exactly do they deny and why is it bad ?

I will answer that (and remove this post) as soon as I'm done with the housework I set myself to do today.

I'm not debating Lenka. I'm just saying as it is. 60to 70 % of voters in Poland do not vote.2
77777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777 77777777777777777777777I - that cat's contribution.


GO AHEAD. Call them names. Sorry call me names as well I voted for them once.
Am I calling anybody voters names? No, I'm talking about political awareness among majority of those who vote. They are easily scared. They listen to TV. If a nice dude would tell them that such and such could end badly, they are worried and if there three or four such talking heads saying the same - they are shything in their underwear.

Like with the idea to privatize, give all flats to those who were living in them. You do remember that many flats were owned by the state and had been a sort of lend to people who were living in them. I don't think there is a name for that in English.

That was connect to the plan to return all property confiscated by Soviets to the rightful owners. The point is that I think (not sure) the idea of giving flat to people were rejected in referendum. Why? Those who were against that launched propaganda telling everywhere they could same rubbish, something that they will gave to pay extras for those flats or something else I don't remember, creating atmosphere of suspicion - that scared people off - they are easily scared. Cause they do not know better and a real elite do not exist.

There no independent authorities who could tell people if this or that idea is sound or not.


Lenka if someone is interested in this he/she can find plenty of articles in newspapers or in the Internet about that. There are historical books about that. There is even book written by sociologist professor - Staniszkis.

What you are saying is - there have been nothing on TV about that. Yes there were no much about that for a reason.
If you don't want to trust somebody you need to secure information and sources on your own.

Lenka
PiS was and is about cleaning up the mess and unfinished busienss left behind by the foundign fathers of III RP. The roundtable deal of providng the commies with a soft landing could conceivably be justified by the fact that in the early years thingn were still in a state of flux. Yanaev had unleasged a coup in Russia and no-one really knew if things wouldn't get re-sovietised. But by 1992, when a pro-Polish Yeltsin was in power, genuine de-communisation coulld have been launched. It was thwarted by the parliamentary coup (call it what you like). A group of politicians (see the film 'Nocna zmiana') gathered in a backroom to plot the overthrow of the Olszewski government. That put paid to any serious clean-up. Ex-commies wormed their way into treasury companies, the media, the privatisaiton machinery and other key posts. They were covered by former commie-era and current RP special services, a coterie of cooperating industrialsits, media types and politicians which formed the unholy bridge foursome known as 'układ'. This is what the IV RP wanted to eliminate. Is that bad? Remember it took 2 decades just to trim down to size the fat-cat pensions enjoyed by Poland's wreckers, senior PRL-vintage bigwig OAPs.

Rubbish!


Sounds good to me.

Not really jon. But i heard about that all the same.
That proves my point here - people, voter are easily scared and can be induced to vote by creating atmosphere of fear.


data please

electionresources.org/pl/

well - your source - election 2011 49% of all voters voted
OK so about 50% of voters do not vote. Rubbish not! Exaggeration yes but 10% is not that much.

Except it wasn't. The two years of PiS Government showed us what really happened - PiS pushed their men into positions of power and left many ordinary people without anything. Remind us why the PiS government conveniently forgot about the promise to "build 3 million flats" when in power? And of course, you seem to have forgotten that Lech Kaczynski was one of those fathers.


There was no coup - it was democracy.


Perhaps because they thought that it wasn't worth dragging up all this stuff yet again for the millionth time, as well as not trusting what was actually in those archives?


No, Polonius. The IV RP wanted to eliminate any opposition to them. Witness the witchhunts and protection of their own.

The whole TVP debacle was all that we needed to know.

It's a waste of breath an anyone so bitterly seething with hatred towards PiS. Even about Hitler on the plus side that he was respsonsible for the VW and Autobahns, but you have yet to say a single good word about PiS and the brothers. Yes, even Tusk's lacklustre govt slashed the fatcat pensions of excommie bigwigs and arranged. Euro 2012.