Pubs in Poznan kick out Roma?

Doh!
yes, well...
*Looks around to find another topic and whistles ashamedly*


I don't really know the Roma, so my superficial answer would be that they are much the same in many ways even though they have separate cultures.

There was a time, when Irish travellers were respected skilled trades people, who brought news and spread our folklore all across Ireland and until modern times, I have heard it said that a villages doors would be open to them.

but with our particular form of education and world view, we think ourselves better than them. There are some real issues that I do disagree with with the Irish Travellers, such as education and health services but there is a tenancy to hate what we don't understand.

And Travellers keep to themselves, it is only when some of them get in to trouble that us settlers hear about them and we are so stupid we brand them all based on their worst.


I never see Roma here in Poland living in caravans the way that Irish travellers do, is it not common?
Is the Roma culture so bad for us? if so in what way?

A caste system. Girls taken out of education and married off at 13 - 16. A list of "forbidden" jobs (doctor, farmer, dentist, etc). Romanipen - the Gypsy code of behaviour - which sets you apart from the "gajos". The subservient role of women in Romani society. The fact that marrying a gajo effectively means you will be shunned by your family and friends (there are exceptions to this rule, but I spoke to a Roma lady about this and she said it was very much alive still).

Have any of you actually talked to any Roma? Visited them at home? Eaten at their table (not WITH them though, because that would defile them ritually)? Seen how they raise their children?

o? but, my brotherly Poles, ObaMa coming to Poland soon. He won`t be satisfy. He can`t be worse then Cigans, i presume

I'm sure the Roma culture has much going for it but the main problem is that they don't come over in most european towns as cultured people, living from singing and dancing and circussing or whatever.

They come as nomads who settle down wild, pay no taxes, don't care for the land because they move on anyhow, leaving behind a sullied waste land...they send their women and children begging on the streets with their men waiting around the corner for the money...and if all fails they live from stealing and cheating as they mostly don't care for education or regular works.

Not to mention that the backward traditions of the Roma folks clashes with many basic rules of the western civilization...

It's that part of the Roma life people have problems with...and they don't want them anywhere near.

Women taking their little ones with them even if it is cold and rainy just to get more money out of the people...



Somehow these experiences differ greatly from your tales about the irish travellers.
Alot of people lived/lives at "wandering workers" (Wanderarbeiter), that is not the same....

Question is, would it be acceptable for me to behave like that? Probably not.

The sheer number of Roma that have found success in Europe points to the problem being one of integration. Some put in the effort, and integrate, some have no intention of integrating. Fair enough, it's a choice. Easy as that right?

Easy!

It seems to become a problem if Europeans get angry at this asocial behavior of some Roma (not all) ...then they are suddenly Nazi/Racists again.

Not so easy!

Remember the "outcry" of the lefty media at Sarkozy's sending illegal Romas back? As if he would send them to the ovens...

As Brüssel threw a fit I thought Sarkozy should had send them to Brüssel instead...it would had been interesting how long their heartbreaking sympathy would last if they had them in their own backyards.

What was worse in Germanys perspective Jews or Roma Gypsies?

Nope.

Bratwurst Boy, do you know any Romani people?


Well yes and no, Travellers are for the most part hated by settlers in Ireland.
You are getting my view of them and I do not hate them and see them as a part of our culture, even though they are a separate part they are still intertwined.


So are you saying they are not European? You call yourself an American but people who have lived here for 500 years are just blow ins?

Sure, our bass player in Prague. His day job was a UNIX admin at a large shipping company.


If they integrate they are, if not, no they're not. What does that have to do on whether they integrate or not? That is the question, is it not?

Germany has so many things right, problem is if they ruled the world they'd kill off half of it with fcuking gas chambers....

Nope....I see only that image they give most non-Roma....especially in big towns like Berlin.
And that is not nice...


Are those travellers you speak of are Irish? Do you have a link to them? I never heard of them...


Another question...what is European about them?

A recurring thought I have while reading this thread is about Poland during the partition, when it didn't exist.
If Poles had integrated into the German, Austrian-Hungarian and Russian Empires, there would be no modern day Poland and therefore no PF (can you imagine).


Yes they are Irish.


I thought all you had to do to be European was to live on the continent.
it is a geographical label not a state of being.

There is the difference to the Roma, you know?

German apprentice craftsmen make traditionally a Lehr-/Wanderjahr. Wandering through the land, looking for work...using this time to learn different workflows, grow personally...before they settle down.

Doesn't make them to Gypsies either...


So...and me living in China would make me a Chinese? ;)

yes after 500 years, like Convex is an American :p

Heh:)

Interesting thought...even without learning chinese??? And keeping to my european ways???

Poles did integrate into those societies. They spoke the language, worked alongside different ethnicities, intermarried. Polish culture isn't all that far off from the cultures of her neighbors, not a whole lot of adaptation needed. You don't have to lose your identity in order to integrate. But it's kind of moot, as Poles were forced to integrate due to their homeland being split up, Roma haven't yet settled down anywhere. There's not a whole lot of ways to get your own country, you either fight for it, or integrate into another society.


Remember, there was no America before Europeans came over and kicked the bejesus out of the Indians (of which I'm a card carrying member, discount car insurance FTW!).

Many years ago, I worked with a German toolmaker (right accent / demeanour for the stereotypical German). Odd thing is, he had a Polish last name. Couldn't convince him that he was anything but German. So it is possible to integrate, if one is willing.

Not odd...there are so many fully german 'skis in Germany you wouldn't believe it.

that's strange because I could have sworn I was in Poland, not Germany, Austrian-Hungarian or Russia.
Where the flip am I???


I don't believe that, so if the Poles integrated so well, why is there a Poland?


Do Romani want their own country?


There was no gravity before Newton invented it either but you're still a yank :D


I doubt that for 500 years no Romani has ever integrated.
We are talking of a culture not an individual.

True, Podolski comes to mind!

I never heard them demand their own country...hmmm..


The integrated, settled down Roma aren't the problem people talk about.....


The typical German from the Ruhr area is called "Kowalski"! :)
(In Berlin often too...)

As was pointed out above, there are pressures not to integrate. I am sure along the way , many did, but not enough to call it complete integration. The culture lives on, obviously.

Did they get jobs in those societies? Yes.
Did they become educated in those societies? Yes.
Did they speak the local language? Yes.
Did they hold public office? Yes.
Were they of nearly the same culture anyway? Yes...

Compare that to Gypsies...


Again, you can still hold on to your identity while working within the constructs of a new culture. I'm not Polish, I integrated fairly well. Hell, Nigerians, Vietnamese, Russians... Why do we make excuses for Gypsies?


No.


Fair enough. We integrated pretty well over there. Some are still stuck on reservations drinking themselves stupid and living on the dole, others got off their butts and integrated.

Well, we can blame you lot for that: if you'd finished what you got halfway through, there'd be none of them left to project any image at all.

Were Polish people content living in someone else's culture?
NO, to the extent they fought for their own country back.


Integrated? I just used you as an example, I don't want to talk about the U.S. it's a great place.


I agree, isn't that the point?

Explain, please.

Doubtful....you never get them all...

PS: I wish I had that much fantasy and time to "project" an image...but the reality keeps kicking you in the face!


They didn't quite wander into someone else's country...to the contrary someone else's country tried to took them over.

How you can that compare to the nomadic Gypsies is beyond me!

I thought he meant the Nazi Holocaust.
But it seems many European countries have done despicable things to the Romani people.

Not really. They did seize on an opportunity when it was presented. And if you look at the partitions, it was more or less still Poland, just with a new tax master. The Partitions are a bad example.


Integrated is the single most important point about this thread. The video that was shown is absolute bigotry, I agree on that.

But as to the question of integration, some do, some don't. Quite a few don't, by choice. That's a hard one to argue with considering the number of outreach programs that are out there. Some people want to integrate, some don't.

What's the next step? Gotta settle down somewhere...

The point is that pubs in Poznan kicked out Roma. There is a reason for that. Whether it is racism or an owners attempt at maintaining what he considers reasonable rules for his place of business remains to be determined. If a particular group can't or won't maintain decorum as dictated by the norms of society, the question begs to be asked, "why"?

What makes this culture so anti-social? Or is it the rest of society that has the problem?