Polish police chief removes crosses

OK, well if Gazeta Wyborcza says it, then they really have to go (......)


Side note: any Brit who's singing his national anthem is really singing a National Anthem of German Empire (just for your information, not meant as an insult)

youtube.com/watch?v=skfzF2zjnAY

Then why not pogan signs? Poland was pogan earlier than Catholic. But seriously- history is important but it shouldn't have place in political and public life this way. Neither should religion.


Because the government and it's institutions should care about all the citizens, not only the majority. When a person walks into police station I want her/him feel confident into it's fairness no matter what hungs around his/her neck- a cross, star of David or moon and the star. I want parents to send their kids to school knowing that the children won't be pushed into some religious things. Crosses on the walls are giving absolutely wrong impression.

It's about principle- to represent all Poles (all religious signs) and not mixing political and religious life (no signs at all) . If someone has private shop- let him put whatever one wants but not in places run by the state.

And to reverse question- why I as an atheist should be forced into being treated (in public hospital), questioned at the police station and so on in the rooms with crosses? Why should it not matter to me? It's not meaningless- I know it represents Catholics so why should I ignore it? And why can't Catholics ignore other religious signs next to it?


Original!!! Good try but no, I read it only few times and bought it only when they had CD's with PIT or cheap books. Keep trying tough :)

Cheers for that Polo! The reality is that 79.1% of Danes are members of the church of Denmark, 77% of Norwegians are members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway, 76.4% of Finns are members of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland and 67.5% of Swedes are members of the church of Sweden. Of course, most of those people are like the Polish 'Catholics' who don't bother going to church or things like that, but they still declare membership of the church, and that's good enough for you, right? I mean, you still claim that 92% of Poles are Catholics when even the RCC says "Według Instytutu Statystyki kościoła Katolickiego wierzący katolicy stanowią 60,8% ludności Polski ( The Institute of Statistics of Catholic Church says believing Cathilics make for 60,8% of the population of Poland)".

Got any more classics for us?

No insult taken the melody is the same as the original German anthem. The lyrics even after translation are very different, my point is the number of times God is referred to during the British national anthem. I am more than sure all of those 80,000 football fans singing their hearts out at wembly stadium,or the fans at Olympics 2012 or any other event when the British national anthem is sing a long are not all Christians,Muslims or Jews therefore they must be passive Christians,Muslims& Jews. It beggars belief an atheist would sing a song acknowledging God as the ultimate higher power.

I don't claim a bloody thing. CBOS has found that nearly 93% of those surveyed are self-declared Catholics. Whether that means they're Catholics or not by Harry-ite or any one else's standards doesn't really amount to a hill of beans!

By the way, aside from formal Chruch membership, what is the actual Church attendance index in the Nordic states?

How strange. CBOS found 93% were Catholic, but the Catholic Church themselves found only 60%? How does that work?


This is why I sing Flower of Scotland and don't even know the words to God Save The Queen ;)

(although I'm not an atheist)

opinions vary


they don't care either way, not in Poland and not here either. and it's naive to believe, they do.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread, enjoy.

Might you be able to link to that particular survey? The references I can find are to one from 2008, when some 94% of Poles said that they believe in God but in that same survey 52% claimed that they go to church at least once per week, which we know from RCC data to be a lie:

94 % of Poles believe in God , is evident from the beginning of August CBOS research . As emphasized by CBOS, Poles generally describe themselves as believers . Today, says that about a 94 % of respondents , including at the ninth considered to be deeply religious . Only 6 % of respondents admit that they do not believe in God .

The establishment of a Polish state is often identified with the adoption of Christianity by its ruler Mieszko I in 966

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland

that's why

R.I.P. done

If that were even half relevant we'd be insisting that much more from Mieszko's time were still practiced. We don't bother with the form of government that he had, because we now have something better. Just as we don't have a theocracy with crosses all over public buildings because our culture has evolved past that too.

...And is heading for a homocracy with rainbow banners all over the place!

Nothing wrong with banners, however only in your fevered imagination do groups of people want to hang 'banners all over the place' nowadays and as for the bizarre word 'homocracy', you need to take a reality check.

There's absolutely no point to discuss the obvious. 92.2% of Poles officially and freely declared themselves Roman Catholic, end of story. I don't care whether they're being seen as such by you or anyone else. If you tell me, you're atheist, I'm not gonna tell you, no you're not and I won't ask you any questions why you consider yourself an atheist, either. There's really nothing else, I'd like to add to this debate. If you guys feel like flipping the same crap upside down over and over again, you're welcome to do so but I'm done with it.

Enjoy.

And 60% of people reported themselves to be Christian in the 2011 census in the UK. Pretty meaningless if you ask me - declaring yourself Catholic means nothing if you don't bother to actually practice it at all. You need to look at the numbers actually attending Church to get an idea as to the real number.

As I'm sick of saying on here, people will say "Catholic" if they don't practice, as long as they don't have any particularly strong feelings against the Church. It's rare for children not to be baptised (not least because it's turned into a comedy ritual of getting a child baptised just so you can book an expensive restaurant for a party) here, but it's meaningless.

Mass attendance figures show that your figure is at best unreliable. People tick a box but don't do anything about it the rest of the time. In any case, even if 100% were practising Catholics, the Polish state is still, according to the constitution that people recently voted on, a secular state.

Attempts to change that have led to political parties being voted out of office; those who voted them out are part of your 92.2%.

Indeed. They can't be counted as Catholic by any reasonable measure - I suspect that for many of them, they would only discover their Catholicism if a religious conflict broke out.

jon357
What would you call it when a 3% minority tries to forces its ideas and anti-values on the rest of society?

And what makes you think society doesn't agree with those values?

I thought tolerance and respect for others was a key part of Christianity. Then again, you can always tell who is repeating crap from Trybuna Ludu and who is a genuine Christian.

Which ruse or sleight of hand will you use to wiggle out of this one? I know a good one: The Telegraph is not a reliable newspaper. That has been used by the Fearsome Foursome already in the past, but many PF-ers may have forgotten that cheap trick so why not give it another shot.

Teachers in the UK can lose their jobs if they refuse to promote gay 'marriage'.
telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9825341/Government-powerless-to-protect-teachers-from-sack-over-gay-marriage.html

A Scottish Catholic adoption agency has been accused of discrimnating against so-called 'gay' couples when deciding adoptions because they gave priority to those who had been married at least two years. Such long-standing 'gay' liaisons are apparently a rarity.

telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9822253/Catholic-adoption-agency-faces-punishment-for-gay-discrimination.html

Pro-homosesxual atcivists are calling for the sacking of a Texas councillor who believes gay and lesbian couples should nto be allowed to adopt orphans.
theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/18/texas-councilwoman-under-fire-after-secret-anti-gay-recording-is-leaked-to-media

Just in case some people think all homosexuals are only obsessed with their own interests, pleasures and private agendas and that there is no such thing as an empathetic, altruistic and decent 'gay', meet Doug Mainwaring who says: 'In our sometimes misguided efforts to expand our freedom, selfish adults have systematically dismantled that which is most precious to children as they grow and develop. That's why I am now speaking out against same-sed marriage. And I am gay!'

lifesitenews.com/news/im-gay-and-i-oppose-gay-marriage

The Telegraph is a very right wing newspaper - it's not called the Torygraph for nothing. Anyway.


How unfortunate for you - you've tried to give an example that I can debunk very easily.


And in the words of the education minister Michael Gove -


dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2272543/Gove-declares-teachers-wont-fired-opposing-gay-marriage.html

Polonius, do try harder with your lies.

You're forgetting (or ignoring) that people have to follow the law in so many areas. A teacher, social worker etc can object to this, that or the other, but they still have to do their job according to the rules. They can have all sorts of objections on all sorts of grounds to all sorts of laws, but their role remains the same. Do the job according to the law or do something else.

Exactly. Hence in this case, they should have done their job according to the law - which meant not undermining their superior.

I'm only sad that these police officers weren't disciplined accordingly.

delphiandomine
Including the Nuremburg Laws? Any kind of law can be enacted but the fact it gets on the books does not automatically made it right, advisable or beneficial. The fact that 10 years ago teachers and adoption agencies would not have been threatened or harassed in thsi way, only shows what is quite obvious: that the lgbt fanatics representing a tiny 3% minority in the first place have been quiety infiltrating, loudly trumpetting, brainwashing and chipping away at the very foundations of society and trying to impose their agenda on everybody else.

Again, you're pretending there are invisible enemies working to drive society further and further from your personal ideal, if it ever existed in reality. The world is changing - accept that and you will be less unhappy.

I don't think you can compare the Nuremburg Laws to this.


This isn't a law enacted by a dictator - this is in accordance with a Constitution that was voted upon and accepted by the Polish people.


Could you perhaps explain what LGBT individuals have to do with crosses in police stations?

Clearly that is a common misconception. Democracy IS about majority rule. Also care is a very imprecise term.
Poland is "a democratic state ruled by law and implementing the principles of social justice".


Constitution:"We, the Polish Nation - all citizens of the Republic, Both those who believe in God as the source of truth, justice, good and beauty, As well as those not sharing such faith but respecting those universal values as arising from other sources..." all officials "shall be impartial in matters of personal conviction, whether religious or philosophical, or in relation to outlooks on life, and shall ensure their freedom of expression within public life."

The devil lies in the details.

The majority chose a secular state.

The majority were never asked: Do you want a secular state? That's something the ex-commie Kwaśniewski-Miller clique forced through in their deviously verbose constitution.

The majority were asked in a nation-wide referendum. They were free to examine the text and vote accordingly.

As for "Deviously verbose", if I can understand it, what's everyone else's excuse? Is it that difficult to understand that the Constitution guarantees freedom for all?