Polish police chief removes crosses

What is it with these Polish-Americans trying to tell Poland that her Constitution is worthless? Madness.

You know that the Consitution also guarantees that marriage is only between a man and woman. No other alternative arrangements are possible. I hope you also respect that constitutional principle and will fight to protect it.

It's in the Constitution, therefore if I want to change it, it must be amended via the correct channels. As you say, no other alternative arrangements are possible at this time - and if anyone attempted to push through a "marriage" between anyone other than a man and a woman, they should be stopped from doing so until the Constitution is amended.

However, nothing in the Constitution prohibits civil unions. The Constitution is cleverly written - while "marriage" is prohibited between anything other than a man and a woman, nothing stops the establishment of an alternative that grants exactly the same rights given to a married couple.


But her name isn't "Gronkowiec", not even the first part of her last name.

Do you need a link to the rules?

Lenka, why Delphy can accuse me of being American, while if I try to set the record stright, it gets deleted?

If that ever happens, it will be a day of national tragedy. All flags at half-mast until the nonsense is repealed. Luckily, the Sejm has spoken and Tusk has made it clear he does not plan to pursue the issue. But Holland and Spain and a few others beckon!

Given that you talk about the issue far more than the rest of us, one would suspect that you'll be celebrating from the rooftops.

As for flags at half mast - I don't think so. I imagine life will continue on exactly the same as before, while perhaps for some of us, the denial will finally end.

taking into consideration that your constitution was written not too long ago and under different circumstances, I can understand why it doesn't have the same meaning to guys as ours has to us

Except Kondzior isn't Polish, so he doesn't speak for Poland. The Constitution in question - the first democratically instituted constitution since 1921 in Poland has immense importance to those that believe in democracy.

he is if he says he is. How would you feel if someone would say, you're not Scottish? OK, you probably don't care (knowing you from PF) but many others do and you have to respect it but even if you don't, it won't change anything about how others feel about it.


well, the problem with that is that according to what I see on PF and to my personal observations while in Poland, it doesn't seem to have the same importance to many Poles as it has to you and people who feel like you (for obvious reasons, you love the secular thing about it, most Poles don't).

It's very obvious what he is. I object to people like him claiming to be Polish.


What you see on PF isn't really relevant - as you can see, there are Polish-Americans telling Poland what is good and what isn't good. At least one of them refuses to take Polish citizenship and has never voted on Polish affairs, yet feels the need to tell us what matters and what doesn't.

I defend it because I see it as a remarkable work - it manages to keep everyone happy, it contains many safeguards of human rights and gives people the freedom to be themselves. If you read it carefully, you can see that it defends (heavily) the right to religion, but it also defends the rights of others that may not want to be subjected to religion. The preamble in particular is an excellent piece of writing - it recognises that many Poles believe in God, but it also recognises that people can draw morality from other sources.

Given how Poland suffered on the way to this one, I think it's worth defending. It was a long and hard struggle, but now there's a document in place that guarantees the rights of all citizens regardless of nationality, ethnicity and so on. Have you read it?

It's worth pointing out that most of those ranting about the Constitution have never read it or simply don't understand it. The document is more like a list of rights - particularly in response to the harsh 1952 Stalinist constitution. It also - wisely - limits the President to a mostly ceremonial role.

Delphy, you are amusing. Sure, I spent over a decade in US and Canada. I have also been quite some time in India. Does it make me Asian? I also visited UK and Swiss, and some other places as well, so what? I was born and risen in Beskidy mountains, and now I live in the city of Bielsko-Biala. F*Off

well, he obviously feels very Polish and he might be just as well, we simply don't know. Unless you can prove him wrong, he is what he says he is.


well, not quite. It happens to be that what they say here on PF, pretty much confirms what I've experienced in Poland.

according to the link below, 92.2% of Poles are Catholics and this is pretty much the impression I had when I was there.

natemat.pl/52507,ponad-35-mln-katolikow-w-polsce-najwiekszy-odsetek-na-swiecie

Even more ludicrous and downright grotesque are those of alien ethnicity, alien religiosity, alien blood and alien genes defining Poland and lecturing Poles and Catholics on how they should act..Go back and preach to your Celtic fold -- maybe they'll want to listen to you, but give Poland a break!

Perhaps you'll cease with the preaching, then.

That applies only to 100% aliens -- foreign to Poland and things Polish in every possible way.

Give Polish Forums a break, you were so much nicer when you were banned....you're about as Polish as Ho Chi Minh was.

What is going to be interesting is when same-sex couples who have got married elsewhere in the EU come to Poland and apply for the same rights that married couples in Poland enjoy. Poland legally cannot deny those same rights to people who have got married in the EU just because those people are same-sex couples.


Your link can say whatever it wants; however, the body which says whether people are Catholics or not is the Catholic church. The RCC lays down rules about who is and is not Catholic: the vast majority of Poles do not meet the minimum requirements of the RCC. And no amount of crosses in public places will change that.

Hey Delph and Harry; what exactly are you two arguing?
Are you arguing Poland isn't made up of a society that identifies itself as being Catholic or that officially this is a secular country or that you're against crosses in public?

What makes those mutually exclusive positions?

FWIW,
a) Poland is a secular nation, as is confirmed by the constitution and by the actions of Poles.
b) I favour either all religious symbols being displayed or none at all.

nothing


The vast majority of society seems to disagree with you. Deal with it.


I'll take your word for it.

That Poland isn't a Catholic country. Polonius appears to have issues with reading the Constitution - I doubt he's ever actually read it.

Okay, it seems if you guys could come to an understanding as to what a country actually is or isn't, you might come to an agreement of sorts.

Poland is a country in which most people identify as Catholic, but Poland isn't Catholic. Simple. The fact that Catholicism isn't even mentioned in the Constitution says it all.

Poland is a secular country. The majority of Polish people may reply that they are Catholic when asked about their religion but the RCC does not consider those people to be Catholics (because they do not meet the minimum requirements to be Catholic). That is in contrast to Catholic nations, such as Malta, where the majority of people are practising Catholics.

See that's what I mean, it seems the word country is being misused in place of society and that might be where a certain bit of disagreement is stemming from.


Are you a bee keeper by any chance?

Absolutely. No-one denies that society generally identifies itself as Catholic here if asked about religion, but in terms of adherence to the religion, it's rather weak and by the RCC's own measures, most aren't Catholic. One measure (by a journalist on a far-right wing Catholic website) estimates less than 2 out of 10 are devout Catholics.

The problem stems from the like of Polonius attempting to tell everyone that Poland is Catholic because he says so - when all the official documentation suggests otherwise.

Neither laws nor definitions will ever make people what they don't want to be. I'm sure, you guys know it but you're politically so far left that it blinds your, otherwise healthy judgement. Most Poles are Catholics, accept it.


I agree with that part of your statement but obviously, in this particular case, there won't be many other symbols to display in Poland ;-)

Taking crosses down in Poland however is wrong because it suits very marginal parts of the society and at the same time, punishes the earlier mentioned, 92.2% of it.

If somebody wants to belong to any organisation, he has to meet the minimum requirements of that organisation. Surely you can understand that, can't you?

The simple fact is that in order to be a member of the Catholic church one has to meet the minimum requirements of the RCC. One of such requirements is to go to church every Sunday and on certain feast days. The vast majority of Poles do not do that and thus do not meet the minimum requirements the RCC imposes on Catholics.


There are plenty of other faiths in Poland, some officially recognised, some not.


When they can all be bothered to go to church as often as the RCC says they must, then they can force their supposed religion onto other people; right now about 20% of them do bother to go to church that often.

well, I'm sure you understand that if the RCC was so unhappy with its followers not fulfilling the requirements of the RCC, it would drastically narrow down the amount of Catholics in Poland.


yes, there are but they don't have many followers, not to my knowledge anyway.

Anyways, again I agree with you that they should be allowed to display their religious symbols as long as their religion doesn't support hatred and violence.


No one has the right to force others to believe what he believes but it works both ways, Harry. It means that just because you're an atheist or a Jew or whoever you are, you can't expect the 92.2% of Poles to act the way you want them to act and remove crosses allover Poland just because you and people who feel like you, don't like it or feel bothered by it.

Just let everyone display his religious symbols, like you said earlier and the world will be just fine.

Care to quote data from the RCC about the number of Poles who are Catholic? I doubt it somehow.


Can you imagine how the mohair beret brigade would react to the symbol of Satanists being displayed next to their cross? Me too.