Polish police chief removes crosses

Although police actions are certainly extreme, here in the US, the police in one of the Midwestern states removed a man by force for proselytizing Jehovah's Witness material in a school. While the state is overwhelmingly Protestant, it was felt (correctly too, I might add!) that using school children as guinea pigs for someone's own religious agenda violated the Constitution as well as the Freedom of Information Act.

Would they react similarly if someone tried to smuggle LGBTpropaganda leaflets into kindergartens and schools?

The EU, just recently, was guilty of providing propaganda to schools.

The topic of this thread (which you should know, seeing as you started the thread) is "Polish police chief removes crosses" but you start talking about smuggling LGBT propaganda into schools, good to see that you learned from your recent suspension for going off-topic.

Perhaps you'd care to explain why only the symbol of one religion should be displayed in public buildings?

you actually have quite a sick mind and you are obsessed with gays

I think he is genuinely fantasising about gay propaganda in schools.

Why is for the reader to decide.

Because this is Catholic Poland, whether anyone likes it or not. The heart and soul of Poland have always been and will probably always be Catholic. And that despite attempts to infect the country with alien values and copycat culture.

Those peddling super-secularist notions would probably feel more at home in the godless Czech Republic. It's only a stone's throw away, so why not go for it! Wouldn't it be great to wallow in a spiritual vacuum of sterile agnosticism and laïcité 24-7?

Polonius, do you have trouble with the Constitution? Poland is not Catholic.


No, it really hasn't. Have you forgotten already about the vast nomeklatura that provided the backbone of the PRL? Even if they go to Church these days, they've already shown that they are nothing but opportunists who realised the advantage of associating with the Church and before that, the Party.


The strange thing about this scenario is that those who are preaching about Polish culture refuse to even consider Polish citizenship.


May I remind you that secularism is guaranteed by the Constitution?


Quite what that has to do with crosses in police stations is beyond me.

Not it is not, as is proven both by the constitution of Poland and the fact that the vast majority of Poles do not practise that faith.


Perhaps those who want to live in a religious country should move to one where God is mentioned in every pledge of allegiance and on every bank note? Why don't you go home?


Well, he does want to destroy the third republic.

It is very odd that a man who seems to push a religious agenda at every opportunity would willingly move to a secular country (and one - at the time - was barely tolerant of religion) and would continue to stay despite that country establishing a new, clearly secular Constitution.

Does that term or the separation of church and state even appear in the Polish Constitution?

It makes it clear that Poland is the common good, not Catholicism or any other religion.


Again - it makes it clear that Poland does not discriminate based on religion.


And the proof that Poland is a secular country and not Catholic.

But the ultimate -


legislationline

It is very clear that Poland is not a Catholic country constitutionally.

Again - if you want a religious country so much, why did you move to a country that was officially atheist?

By country you mean the Soviet-imposed regime. Poland is the Polish nation first and foremost and it has always been overwhelmingly Cahtolic. The vast majority declare their identificasotn with Catholicism, and that was the case in PRL, although such surveys were not published and back then, and remains so at present. Regardless if a Gomułka, Miller or Tusk run the regime, the nation is Catholic to the core.

Yes. Very queer that someone who rants so much about religion and it being an integral part of the State would choose to move to such a country.


Why do you so stubbornly refuse to take citizenship of the Polish nation, then? That seems very strange to me.

I'll take Polish citizenship (and the obligations that it entails) when the time arrives - I would never identify as a Polish patriot, but as someone who wants to take full part in Polish life, citizenship seems like an obvious step.


Except it isn't, as witnessed by the amount of devout Catholics being estimated at less than 2 in 10.

well Harry, the law can't change anything about how people feel about it (in any country, not just in Poland). According to what I've experienced in Poland, most Poles believe in God.

Believing in God doesn't make you a Catholic - I know plenty of people who believe in God but who want nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

It may be factually correct to suggest that a majority of Poles believe in God, but it is incorrect to say that a majority of Poles are Catholic.

true but what I can say, most of those I've met and I've met many people there, were Catholics. I know, you guys hate to accept it but it's a fact.

According to the rules of the RCC, those people were not Catholics; it really is that simple.

You know more about it than the Poles themselves, right? Upwards of 90% declare themselves to be Catholic, not just Christian, not just believing in God, but C A T H O L I C. I you don't like it, the Czech Republic beckons! The sooner the better. They's got very good beer down there BTW.

They can declare themselves as Moonies, that won't change the fact that they aren't real Moonies, just as they aren't real Catholics either. Real Catholics follow the requirements of the church. To use your charming phrase, Poland is a cafeteria Catholic country, not a Catholic country such as Malta.


If you don't like living in a secular country, you are most welcome to move to one which is not secular. Do try to pick one which is not both officially and unofficially secular: Poland is of course both those things.

Putting it very simply, Poland is a secular country and that is why either all religious symbols should be displayed in every place one currently is (in public places) or no religious symbols should be displayed at all.

A CBOS poll carried out in 2012 showed that 93% of Poles regard themselves as Catholics; all other religions amount to 1,8%.

cbos.pl/SPISKOM.POL/2012/K_049_12.PDF


The devil quoting from the bible and heathens, atheists, agnostics and other misguided godless types lecturing Catholics on what real Catholicism is all about is downright laughable. Those who do so apparently are so totally lacking in self-criticism that they don't see how ludicrous this is.

you mean, people I've met? C'mon man, you don't know any of them. To me, if you say, you're a Jew, you are a Jew, if you say, you're a Catholic, you're a Catholic. It's not for us to decide who's who.


btw. Suspended? he deserved to be suspended for some other comments he made in the past but not for this 1, c'mon guys.

Quite right: it is for the RCC to decide who is and is not a member of their organisation, and they have very specific rules about who is and is not.

Just as Poland is the one to decide whether it is a secular country or not, and Poland has decided: it is a secular country and hence a cross alone has no place in public places.


Have you seen this one?

But it is for the Church. I remember a priest in my parish, roaring about so called 'believers, but not practitioners' (wierzący-niepraktykujący) (sorry, don't know how to translate it), that they have no right to call themselves Catholics, because a Catholic is someone who attends masses, follows the rules of the Church and so on. To me, at age 15, it was a revelation, I realised that I don't have to pretend any more, because according to the Church I am not actually a member of the Church. Life became a lot easier since then ;) The problem is, most people that call themselves Catholics don't actually know the definition of this word, according to the Church.

If one says, he's a Catholic, he is one, end of story and so, anytime a Pole told me, he's a Catholic, I believed him (why wouldn't I?). Who am I ( (are we) to tell people, they are not what they say they are. I can have my own opinion about it but that's as far as it goes. Some people pray to God and some pray to Marx, what the heck. Why is that a problem, huh? Do we all have to pray to Marx?

Also, I don't understand why having a cross hanging on the wall is such a big problem to you guys. It was always present in Poland and if you don't like it, don't look at it, simple as that. You and your friends, praise yourself to be tolerant, now you have a chance to prove it, Harry.

Again your horse blinekrs are preventing you seeing what's all about. Police and soldiers in uniform go on pilgrimages in Poland. Priests bless police and military cadets taking their oath, they are invited to bless newly opened motorways (too bad Tusk is opening so few of them!), bridges, town halls and even shopping centres. But there's no law against being delusional, creating in one's own mind a fictitious, make-believe secular Poland. Except that it doesn't exist in real life!..

What it's all about is the fact that Poland is constitutionally a secular country. No amount of ranting and raving can change that, only 2/3rds of the Sejm may try.


I don't know about you, but in real life, priests have little to do with life. I don't think I've ever seen a priest in my workplace, and I can't imagine any situation in which one would be invited.

The rant is by the letter-of-the-law sticklers who keep harping about the alleged separation of chruch and state and secular country (neither formulation is found in the current constituion). It should be remembered however that the the present constituion is a post-commie document forced through during the Kwaśniewski presidency agaisnt widespread oppoistion by patriotic Poles. Besides, it's only a piece of paper. Stalin's constitution proclaimed the USSR a free and democratic country. But one needs only to look about to see the real Catholic Poland, whether or not some scrap of paper calls it that or not.

Except, as has been proven to you repeatedly, Poland is a secular state that guarantees freedom of religion (or lack of religion). The fact that you don't like the Constitution and wish to destroy it doesn't change the reality of the situation.


I see you completely fail to mention that the Constitution in question actually dramatically reduced Kwasniewski's power, and you also completely fail to mention that the Constitution was voted for in a nation-wide referendum. The fact that you casually disregarded the will of the people suggests a hell of a lot about what you think about direct democracy - and shows that you're able to disregard the will of the majority of Poles if it doesn't fit with your own political ideology.


Did...you...just...say...that?

Calling the Constitution "just a piece of paper" is - even to me - unbelievably offensive. We are guests in this country, and to insult the document that the entire country is based on as "just a piece of paper" is a massive insult. Given the people that died, the people that suffered and the ones who put forward immense effort to get a Constitution in place that was voted for in a free and fair referendum - you've just insulted every single one of them.

Way to go Polonius. I can't believe that you would disrespect so many who achieved so much.


Try as you might, we're reminded of the quote that less than 2 in 10 Poles are devout Catholics.

No, it is not.


Don't make me laugh. It is Poland, not the USA. We are not Americans, we don't care about law codes all that much, you know. Poland existed, in the hearts of Poles, while "on paper" there have been no such a thing. What is writen on paper do not accounts for much. It is what we believe that counts.