Polish police chief removes crosses

Why?

I think you've got to look at it from the eyes of people in 1990, not 2013. It's madness today that the Church has such a position, but back then, people were on a wave of euphoria - they were happy to give the Church what it wanted without complaint. The concordat, religion in schools, everything - it all makes sense in the early days. By all the historical accounts I've read, most people were quite happy to give the Church whatever it wanted.

Then you've got to add that the Vatican and the RCC have always been very very politically savvy and able to get what they want. It's only in recent times that the Government has started to say "no, enough" - but again, this is 2013 rather than 1990.

Pawian, have you ever encountered a public school that didn't have crosses? I know many private schools in Poland don't have crosses in the school, but public ones?

The govt should give back the land that it owes back to the Church asap.

The Government owes the Church nothing.

Any documents confirming that?
Give back the nationalized land stolen from the Church ir at least pay rent for it.

I think you forget about the billions that the State pays the Church every year.

I suppose you also support the Church kicking out schools, right?

Billions haha
go back to school delphi
you dont know what a billion is i think ;)

Cant say Im surprised. Apart from gays and muslims, there's hardly a "minority" thats as rabbid and agressive about their cause as are atheists.

Given that you seem to post rather aggressively and rabidly on here, what are you then?

All society owes the Church a great deal: spiritual depth, a moral compass, charitable and educational servcie to the nation, and the Polish government simply respects the fact. Not to mention the great architectural wealth forming part of the nation's cultural heritage which is costly to maintain and restore are requires state assistance.

You would expect a man in a legal position of authority would be familiar with the Polish constitution.

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF POLAND
OF 2nd APRIL, 1997
As published in Dziennik Ustaw No. 78, item 483

Having regard for the existence and future of our Homeland, Which recovered, in 1989, the possibility of a sovereign and democratic determination of its fate, We, the Polish Nation - all citizens of the Republic, Both those who believe in God as the source of truth, justice, good and beauty, As well as those not sharing such faith but respecting those universal values as arising from other sources, Equal in rights and obligations towards the common good - Poland.

Source: wipo.int/wipolex/en/text.jsp?file_id=194980

You are kidding?

An organisation that tells women they should be more obedient after they have been abused domestically to prevent further beatings. Where is the moral compass in that????

You must see the irony of critizing the theology of another nation when your own nation's primary economic export to the world is American ass, prnography.

You have failed at every single level of your culture and society and yet you are so concerned with some perceived inconsistency in Poland. Remove first the beam from thine own eye.

You claim your young women are so much more liberated than those under Catholic faith and yet their only real option to pay the bills is to do a seventy man circle jerk twice a month just so they can feed their own children.

Do you have the capacity for shame? Forget about Poles, we respect ourselves enough to fight back when we are insulted. Do you have the guts to fight for anything? I don't mean other people, I mean for your right to exist. It seems you believe your washed-out, surrendered soul has claimed the high moral ground by virtue of believing in nothing at all but consumption.

The Catholics don't need you to straighten them out. You have not even straightened yourself out. Don't worry about microanalyzing every facet of our religion when you have none at all. Secular atheism is a religion for animals that have decided to curl up and become extinct. It is the absence of the will to live altogether.

I fully expect Catholics to be around in a 100 years. It is your genetic line that is kind of iffy and we cannot say for sure there will even be a memory of you and yours in a 100 years. Get some convictions, brother and I don't mean post-modernist critique reductio absurdum.

Press your ear to the ground and listen for the hoofbeats approaching of the multicult hordes of apocalypse coming. They approach for thee, paleskin.

You like talking divisively about the faith and you are living on a 3000 mile wide Balkans ready to explode any day now. Pluck the beam from thine own eye first. Is it possible that of all the ideologies that a nation could hold, your bizarro worldview is the most failed of all of them?

Touched a raw nerve did we.

I think you might find the RCC is going to have to change dramatically to exist in a 100 years time. Populations are no longer repressed in the way they were. Poland no longer requires the RCC to fight on its behalf against its atheist masters. That time has passed.

Here is an article that demonstrates my point.
humanityinaction.org/knowledgebase/159-airing-the-dirty-laundry-exploring-the-challenges-of-domestic-violence-in-poland


Mine is firmly based in the 21st century. Your moral compass obviously is not.

We are still under the occupation of the EU.


IF so there is huge incline from Soviet times:

Atheism is strongest in northwest European countries such as Scandinavia and the former Soviet states (except for Poland). The former East Germany had the highest rate of people who said they never believed in God (59 percent); in comparison, 4 percent of Americans had that response.

The country with the strongest belief is the Philippines, where 94 percent of those surveyed said they always had believed in God. In the United States, that response came from 81 percent of the people surveyed.

Although by most measures, belief in God is gradually declining worldwide, it is increasing in Russia, Slovenia and Israel. In Russia, comparing the difference between those who believe in God but hadn't previously, and those who don't believe in God but used to, researchers found a 16 percent change in favor of belief.

No surprise there Protestardism was the beta version of liberalism and Marxism anyway.

Nobody is born believing in God. My feeling is religion plays on our subconscious fears of the unknown. The heaven and hell conundrum.

It's a choice, which is frankly imposed on most of us, and some choose to release themselves from its shackles when capable of making an informed decision for themselves.


So what happened to Spain?

Going back to your suggestion I am American. I'm not. I'm English with a Polish partner. At least I thought I was; but coincidently I discovered a fact which is a little amusing to me. I was adopted at a few months, and a few days ago discovered that it is likely my father was half Polish and the son of a pilot in the 303 squadron. Bloody ironic. Will find out for definite in a couple of weeks.

In countries like Spain and Portugal, the decline of religiousness started when they got rid of their fascist dictatorships (1974 and 1975) and as to France, it has been a long time since it can no longer be seen as a "catholic" country (law of 1905) with most people being atheists. It is worth mentioning that all 3 countries have homosexual marriage (Spain and Portugal much ahead) and free abortion but it was voted relatively late in Portugal). Portugal and France are really secular states (no influence whatsoever of ANY church, no religious signs in public, no religion classes in public schools, no public fundings) since religion is seen as a strictly private matter. Yet, still official impact of catholicism in Spain (maybe because of monarchy) although most educated middle classes are atheists or non practising.

Did all you mental giants decide in the last ten years to embrace atheism at the same time?

I was an atheist for sixteen years. I was a superior atheist, too.

You show me an atheist, no matter what their IQ, I'll show you somebody whose father has failed them. That's a fact.

You show me an atheist, I'll show you somebody who will worship the State in God's place. That's a fact.

You show me an atheist, I'll show you somebody whose lack of principles to live by and a credo that humbles them before God (being humbled before anybody else is of zero importance) and I'll show you somebody who is fail as a human being.

It's really scary how you all poured in when it became socially safe to do so. I cannot tell you what it feels like to look back and see you all neck deep in that toxic sump I crawled out of holding onto tree roots. The smell and company you keep there alone there should tell you something is wrong.

As for choosing atheism, I'm not sure that ordinary people ever really choose anything. I don't think most of humans are smart enough to be Christians or atheists, it's just what the spirit of the age tells you to do.


Why I am not surprised? All declining societies become secular right before they all die screaming. It's part of the reason they all die screaming, in fact.

This is very pertinent to this thread.

So what changed your mind? I'm interested.


You are a superior Christian also it appears.

True. Go back to discussing taking off the cross. For the other posts we have Atheism vs Christianity thread.

The rulers of main stream media outlets no doubt love this police officer!

not a good move. When there was no Poland, all Poles had was religion and hope that there will be a free Poland one day again. Now you guys come to their country and tell them to give up what helped them to survive for so many generations.........

....(almost forgot, of course there are some Polish, ex commie regime supporters among you too).

True. France was once regarded as 'najstarsza córa Kościoła'. Now a more fitting appellation would be: 'Najstarsza córa Koryntu!'

Well said and the worst part is they are socially liberal limeys who continue to spread their propaganda.
The last thing any sane person wants is for Poland to turn into a UK filled with mindless radical athiests and millions of Pakistanis, Indians and Muslims.

Except that it's not true. That's a myth propagated by the Catholic Church to justify their privileged position in Poland - and don't forget that the Church had their fair share of collaborators too.

As for us telling them to give it up - there are a sizeable amount of Poles who don't want crosses in public places too. In fact, the real problem is that anyone attempting to remove them is usually met with hysteria and crying. Like we've seen here, the real issue is that certain people bully and intimidate if any attempt is made to enforce the Constitution in Poland.

Taking down crosses in public places does not interfere with one's right to practice religion.

When last in Spain during the mid-90's, the school at which I taught had the compulsory crucifix in EACH AND EVERY classroom, including the restrooms! I had no problem at all with it. The staff which hired me knew I wasn't Christian and I simply accepted their rules.

Especially those who scream HOMOPHOBIA to high heaven when someone recalls that the Polish constitution categorically defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman. Not a woman and an ape, not two men, not a girl and her dog or any other off-the-wall combination!

You were warned yesterday. You didn't listen. Now it's a suspension. Your comments are hateful and off topic. You have 5 mins to respond to PMs and so on.

The problem is that this sort of thing should be left for management to decide. If the police chief thinks that crosses are inappropriate in buildings that he commands, then he has the absolute right to remove them as he sees fit. What's happening here is bullying - his subordinates should not (and he should not allow them) undermine his authority.

The crucial thing is that a cross in a public or common space reflects the majority faith, however need NOT reflect the particular faith of a visitor, tourist or guest who happens either not to share that faith (as an atheist or agnostic) or is Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist. I find this entire discussion somewhat repetitive, not to mention disingenuous. France too prohibits crosses, mezzuzot, burkhas or any number of showings of religious feeling. France, like Poland and Spain, is a "Catholic" country, yet realizes that someones beliefs are their own, so long as they respect the beliefs of others.

Well, if you want to talk about majority faith, there isn't one in Poland. Catholicism perhaps has a plurality, but the figures are showing that less than 40% of Poles attend Church 'regularly' (however that's defined).


Which is very sensible in a public place.

For what it's worth, I don't know many people who particularly care for having the cross in public places. Unlike the crowned eagle, it's just not seen as an important thing.