Poles, Polonians and aliens on Pussy Riot?

Human rights are a public issue just like capital mental punishment, environmental destruction, pornography, euthanasia, legalising drugs, abortion, lowering or raising taxes, the drinking age or the age of consent. etc. and every citizen jas a right to voice his views on them at home, at work, on a soapbox or wherever.

are indivisible your other examples are divisible. Human rights are universal in time and place.

I find much of the outrage at jailing ***** Riot hypocritical, the clear exercise of double standards especially among the "hang em and flog em brigade". Putin bad, West good is just too simple an equation.

The special position the church claims for its self ( being divinely inspired ) means that they must exercise self restraint when making political pronouncements otherwise they would be claiming that God supports a political party which is clearly nonsense. The lecturer doesn't claim divine inspiration nor does the taxi driver.

If this is the case, there is no reason why the State is subsidizing the church in all kinds if ways...Going from helping to build that monstrosity in Wilanów to all kinds of tax exceptions. The Canary Breeders also are not supported.

Barney,if that happened here there would be an outcry.

But the lecturer is in the education game not the indoctrination game.
Pol Pot was a history teacher but having him sway the minds of those he taught to believe his way was right, I would class as an injustice (same as the church).

Certain occupations come with a responsibility of not stuffing their own personal feelings/opinions down other people's throats, especially when they hold such sway.

It makes me cry (figuratively speaking) when I read a news article on some pop singer or actor reiterating what is in the news and passing it off as their own political opinion, knowing that fans will suck it up as their own too.


I don't really understand it, Putin had the majority vote but the killing of journalists is not cool but ***** riot didn't seem to address that issue, in fact I am still unclear as to what the protest was about.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

Was it about the church's influencing people to vote for Putin?

***** riot broke the law, the penalty seems harsh but that's their law system.

"Separation of church and state" isn't about protecting the state from the church, it's about protecting the church from the state, as in, not making an official state religion.

Of course religious people have the right to push and vote for laws congruent with their beliefs....


...especially when it comes to something that is a cultural legacy, especially Poland which has one of the strongest Catholic legacies in the entire world, a government should try to preserve it and protect it.

Obviously people don't want a theocracy, but the government is there to represent the population, and if that population is mostly Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim or whatever, it is only natural that such religion be presented. Reminds of me of that muslim women that wanted Italy to ban crucifixes on public places, or UKies firing those women who wore crosses on their jobs. It is ridiculous.

Freedom of religion does not mean freedom FROM religion. It is a freedom after all, not an edict to ban or promote a certain religious agenda. People who do not get this fail at a basic understanding of human liberty.

"Separation of church and state" is also about protecting the state from the church:

Indeed.

A private institution should not be receiving State cash to "teach" children in schools.

It is about religion remaining outside public life and people being free of religious influence in lawmaking and the workplace.


Actually it does mean exactly that for those who want to be free not to follow the religious rules of others.


As long as they (regardless of majority or minority) do not take any sort of precedence over laws which are in conflict with their religious views.

I agree with this harsh but to be expected.

I believe the protest was not really well thought out just a general unfocused rage against the machine type of thing that they knew would land them in trouble, they are not martyrs.

Yes lecturers must exercise caution for the reasons you state but I see the position that churches claim and the state recognises as placing a special onus upon them to exercise reticence in overt political matters. In moral matters the church can speak as it wishes and is often ignored (Capital punishment and sexual abstinence are two such areas that pop to mind)

A big one here in Poland is the in vetro debate:


Interesting read in the Krakow post.

*lights fuse and runs!!!*

Regarding church privileges in Poland - Is it true they can sell sell / trade alcohol without taxes?

It is to make a state free of religious persecution (i.e. a state where an individual could not be persecuted for practicing any religion or no religion at all). Yet modern liberalism would have it skewed to mean that no religious practice whatsoever is to be tolerated by the state.

It’s a difficult one but I believe that the church has a right to express its views and hope that this committee will see sense and allow state funding. It’s illogical to allow privately financed IVF but deny the same procedure to others.

States are free to assist cultural and civic institutions (so why not religious ones?). They often lend support to regions, industrial sectors or, even private business by creating special economic zones, granting tax breaks and extending other forms of assistance. If such boosting methods are passed by parliament or local bodies, then there's no problem.

You have fallen prey to your own propaganda. Journalists often speak of Poland's 'influential Catholic church' or 'staunchly Catholic Poland', until they and others start believing it. But you don't see much of that on PF. How many Poles refuse to shack up and live in sin because the Catholic religion opposes it? Or use contraceptives, reject test-tube babies, not shoplift, not cheat on their spouses, lie or use bad language? Wouldn't 'Poland's none-too-influential Catholic church' be closer to the truth?

I've never met one.

So where is that powerful, overbearing Church influence everybody is always talking about? Must've been made up by the Michnikites.

How do you define "living in sin"? Many couples live together in perfect bliss and happiness without any church blessing. Who are you to condemn them?

As in regard to the many Polish priests who have a mistress /concubine? Newsweek was very entertaining on this one :). Ah of course they only have a maid :)

As in regard to Paetz in Poznań or that pervert priest who burnt himself (very cowardly) on the cemetery because he molested children?

I condemn no-one but extramartial or premarital copulation is a sin according to the Catholic Church. It is senselenss to bring in the paedophiles because they too are sinning. So are the 'kocia łapa' crowd. If you reject Catholci teaching there is no problem. If someone rejects Thou shalt not kill, then in his own mind he is free to murder, abort or administer euthanasia. No problem.

Comparing living together out of wedlock with condoning murder is completely sick :(.
I see that you very lightly dismiss the behave of many Polish priests.

Unlike covering up for priests who have been buggering children, that is perfectly acceptable to the Catholic church, as is putting known paedophiles once again into positions where they can carry on buggering children.

which infuriates me!

No, I''m unaware of this, can you link it?

As to the girls, 2 years is too harsh. They should have been made to clean up churches for 6 months.

The ***** Riot jailing?


Because they can make an economic case for helping (or not) these organisations, with religious bodies the state would have to make a value judgment based on intangible beliefs. Which religion(s) would they have to exclude from largesse?

Barney,my point is that it is not hypocritical if you condemn the actions no matter who it is.

It is not acceptable to engage in or cover up pedophilic activities. These are all serious transgressions according to Church principles. All carnal sins are violations of the 6th commandment.The fact that some church functionaries have acted that way does not make it right. If there are crooked politicians or corrupt cops, does that discredit politicians as a whole or the entire police force?

BTW, anyone have statistics to show that percentage-wise more clergymen engage in pedophilia than actors, lawyers, ballet dancers, writers, hairdressers, etc?

This thread is wandering, please stick to the topic, thanks.

Why stop there?

If your son is rebelious, stone him to death:
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 and again in Leviticus 20:9

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

For breaking the Sabbath

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

this list is endless, so I say to you PS3, you are not doing the lord's work as is written in the bible.


No but if the Pope knowingly hides pedophiles, it is a crime and if he is above the law, there will be no punishment, oh wait a sec, the current and last Pope both knew yet chose to break the law.


If you want the thread to stop wandering, you'll have to delete such insanely pointless posts, otherwise I will (ok, infact have) responded.

although PS3 is a perfect reason why church and state must be seperate, which is what ***** riot were apparently protesting.

Have you forgotten that Christinity replaced the letter-of-the-law 'justice' of the Old Testament with the gospel of mercy. Re-read the 8 Beatitudes. There's noihing there about an eye for an eye. And what did Jesus do when the Pharisees wanted to stone as harlot?

Polonius3 and SeanBM,Guys,try to get it back to the topic at hand,Neither of you think that they were jailed because they angered Putin,they weren't just protesting the Church,they were also critical of Putin,If the church wasn't so connected to Putin,they never would have gotten so stiff a penalty.

P3undone, I think if they would have been in a Russian Chick Fil A protesting Putin no one would have noticed.