Depends folks on whom you call "flag wavers". If you mean do-or-die, my-country-right-or-wrong nationalists, then I'd agree. Yet, being partiotic in a balanced fashion surely wouldn't offend most Germans. Indeed Germans have much to be proud of in their history, the 1933-'45 period nothwithstanding!! The latter was clearly NO abberation, but the ineluctable conclusion to a long and tragic death of Judeo-Christian enlightenment as we know it.
Exactly, jon! Patriotism means many different things to many different people. To me, for instance, partiotism's not about hoisting an Eagle in front of my front lawn and blaring Wagner's "Ride of the Walkyren" to annoy my neighbors (actually impossible in Germany due to their strict regulations regarding noiseLOL). Patriotism's more about a shared pride in Germany's tremendous, to be sure in some areas, immeasurable accomplishments in the arts, sciences, technology, R&D etc..
Yes. Patriotism is about what you feel inside rather than an outward expression of that in itself. That can be a sign of false patriotism - an attachment to the flag waving - as much as anything else. And it's very much about ones country rather than ones roots.
Recovered territories anyone? Ignoring or downplaying centuries of Prussian/German influence in the region? Reducing German history in Poland to the brief period of WW2? You call that objective and impartial?
When last you have seen Polish history textbooks? 40 years ago? It is not true on so many levels for over 20 years, what are you even talking about?
Of course not, but we were talking about Poland, weren't we?
It doesn't mean you have to go overt the top about it. Intelligent person would make comparison to other countries.
Have at least the courtesy to read what is written in this thread.
Are you for real? I think you should apply what you preach. Look for yourself what you wrote :
Irm2: I think Poland historiographyat the moment is most objective and impartial Recovered territories anyone? Ignoring or downplaying centuries of Prussian/German influence in the region? Reducing German history in Poland to the brief period of WW2? You call that objective and impartial?
Maybe youshould read what you respond to.
Yet PiS followers continue to talk about that sh*t to this very day. Are you one of them by any chance?
No, i don't have tendency to talk about sh*t. If you be so kind as to wrote what do you mean by that we could at Least pretend to have a meaningful discussion. Instead one sides shots someone with a phobia.
Distinguish then between partiotism vs. NATIONALISM!! There's the rub. The latter's what the soccer houligans practice, not the former:-)
The post you were replying to largely covers it, however to expand, we can say that Nationalism is a political idea. What soccer hooligans, Jarosław Kaczynski, the wrong sort of flag wavers practise isn't anything really - not so much a political philosophy as just liking the costume.
If Germans feel they're supposed to feel guilty about being culturally patriotic as Germans, how then do the Poles feel about being Polish?
That is what makes it impossible to define either patriotism or Nationalism, What I meant by flag wavers is more a manifestation of political extremism but this is unsatisfactory as you end up with both parties calling each other extreme.
In The Federal Republic, someone who says "Ich bin stolz, Deutsche(r) zu sein!" = I'm proud to be German! = Jestem dumy(a) być Niemcem(ką) is immediately suspect of being a nut job, some sort of subversive and might even risk an unwanted encounter with local law enforcement! In Poland, is the sentence "Jestem dumy(a) być Polakiem(ką)!" enough to cause fur to fly as it would in Germany?
My point is simply that in certain European countries, national pride remains an open wound!
I think Poland historiography at the moment is most objective and impartial
So all the millions of kids that passed through the communist school system and who make up the majority of the Polish population today are all of sudden "enlightened" and don't believe that historic nonsense that they were taught as kids any longer? Don't give me that you-know-what. You only have to go to the former GDR to see how all this indoctrination from the past is still alive and well. Poland is of course different... :)
In The Federal Republic, someone who says "Ich bin stolz, Deutsche(r) zu sein!" = I'm proud to be German! = Jestem dumy(a) być Niemcem(ką) is immediately suspect of being a nut job
Poland is of course different because the Gomułka Era is but a distant memory to any contemporary Pole under at least 60!!! The GDR lasted far longer and went FAR, far deeper into the marrow of the nation. See the deeply moving "Lives of Others" to appreciate what I'm saying. Furthermore, Wojciech Jaruszelski was many things, but he was certainly no Walther Ulbricht:-)
Poland is of course different because the Gomułka Era is but a distant memory to any contemporary Pole under at least 60!
We were talking about Polish commies manipulating historic facts in school education. Just take a good look around PF and you will notice that even here the old commie "spirit" is still around.
To which "commie" spirit are you referring, TheOther? I see mostly capitalism alive and well and living in Cracow! Check out the article from last year some time "Krakow: Cud nad Wisłą" and tell me that the spirit of pre-Solidarność Poland is still as palpable:)
The spirit of "Recovered Territories". People who still come up with that nonsense just changed colors - from commie red to PiS brown ...
My point is that you cannot get education out of people's head easily. You grow up with certain ideas, and these ideas will follow you for the rest of your life. Poland is no different than the ex GDR in this respect. When the 20 something's have finally taken over in Poland, things might change.
In fields such as mechanical engineering perhaps this is so, but one always reads in the foreign press about the young generation of Polish entrepreneurs in the IT industry etc....
The spirit of "Recovered Territories". People who still come up with that nonsense just changed colors - from commie red to PiS brown ...
Yes. There is an excellent post somewhere on this forum that shows how they did just that - and how much of what PiS come out with these days is regurgitated Nazi/Commie nonsense. The stuff blaming the UK for betraying Poland was straight out of the Communist textbook on how to brainwash a population, and yet is believed by PiS supporters.
Yes, I just checked out the article and it suggests to me anyway that Tusk needs to do a lot more to court foreign businesses within Poland. That the Democrats are gaining in polls taken by a clearly partisan source, I'm reminded of what Towarzysz Lenin is supposed to have said umpteen years back "It's not WHO votes that counts, it's HOW you count the votes!
So all the millions of kids that passed through the communist school system and who make up the majority of the Polish population today are all of sudden "enlightened" and don't believe that historic nonsense that they were taught as kids any longer?
Try again. You again failed to comprehend my post and you are ranting about what seems your obsession but what has nothing to do with what I said.
Come on what bothers you come clean! If you have some mental blockade just specify what historical nonsense you have in mind. Be specific - no ranting allowed.
Funny thing is, everybody understood except for you. Anyway, I won't be wasting another minute with some dubious individual who hasn't even signed up on this web site.
