Pole-basher Gross up to old tricks

delphiandomine
I am interested in connection between Gross and Michnik. I know you delphiandomine don't trust anything by Polish but you may be interested in this: Adam Michnik-The Useful Idiot in the "War on Terror"

I don't agree with author that he is an idiot, author should remember one thing Michnik get money for it.


Surprise, surprise English is using sarcasm. Find me any Polish on this forum claiming that Polish people has never ever done anything wrong. You should focus on your bean.

Oh please.

Of course the Polish have done things wrong.

All people on this forum like you do is point out the wrongs of Polish people while being ultra-sensitive about the wrongs of your Russia which started WWII WITH Nazi Germany (Russia's ultimate wrong).

Maybe Gross and the Holocaust Industry should start investigating Russia for things it did that led to the suffering of Jews? Afterall, the Holocaust Industrialists feel deep down all of Central and Eastern Europe is somehow responsible for anything bad that happened to Jews in the past 200 years.

And past Polish presidents, from Lech Walesa to Alexander Kwasinewski have gone on apology tours apologizing to Jews for the bad things that some Poles did to Jews. They did this of course while the people they apologized to never apologized for the wrongs some of their people did to Poles, like there disproportionate participation in high ranking Soviet positions that led to the mass murder of Poles.

Have the Russians ever apologized to the Jews for all of their anti-semitism? Have the Russians ever apologized to the Jews for STARTING WWII with Nazi Germany and training the Nazis how best to find and liquidate Jews? (as referenced in the movie "The Soviet Story)

No, he is not !

I have never made any excuses for Russia invading Poland or for Nazi Germany , terrible things happen in war , and i can,t think of any nation involved in the second war that has a blameless record...

The Soviets did terrible things to their own people , so its no suprise what they did to other nations...

War is a great oportunity to even up old scores with people , and the Poles and the Jews both did each other a few wrongs while it was going on...

And before you ask...no..i am not Russian...

The same thing can be said for Jews and Russians. The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" orginated in Russia, so that should tell you about how Russians felt about Jews. They didn't exactly have the warmest relationship with each other.

Also if you were to ask Russian nationalists, who started communism in Russia, can you guess who they say did it? I'll give you a hint. They will say it wasn't the Russians.

I just find it interesting how Jan Gross and his Holocaust Industry types haven't investigated Russia for anti-semitism the way they have gone after Poland (despite the fact most Jews CHOSE to live in Poland for 1000 years).

Unless of course its only a matter of time before they go after Russia.


Well of course I don't believe you are a Russian citizen, I just think you have Russian ancestry in you based on your sensitivity about things said about Russia while lacking that same sensitivity about equal things said about Poland.

They were Polish citizens - where were they supposed to go?

You should get out of the mentality of saying "Jewish" and say "Polish" instead, because that's what they were.


It's an odd article - it seems to praise Michnik, then it criticises him for his stance on Iraq, then starts ranting about the Balcerowicz plan. It also has quite a few factual inaccuracies, mixing up privatisation with the ending of subsidies to failing businesses. Interesting, though - Michnik's personal support for the Iraq War is certainly at odds with Gazeta Wyborca's readership. But then again - perhaps he just feels the same way as many Poles, that they should help America now in exchange for support in the future?


It's much easier to do the research in Poland though. Really, it's nothing more than that - Poland is an easy place to write books, Russia is not. Russians also don't tend to care much about what someone says about them, whereas Poles do - so it makes even more sense to write a book that appalls Jews and offends Poles?


amazon.co.uk/Hernani-Jew-Story-Russian-Oppression/dp/0548506272

Took two seconds to find that. There are plenty more books out there.

I have defended Poland many a time , and i am more than happy to give the Russians some stick if they deserve it...

I do not have any connection with Russia , other than having a Russian girlfriend , and at the time i served in the military , any connection with Russia would have prevented me from service...

On the subject of Jews in Russia....My girlfriends daughter is writing a book on Malakhovka , the district where she lives in Moscow which has a rich Jewish history , she is also translating it into Hebrew...It seems Jews are welcome , at least in that part of Russia...

Nope, that was almost me. I didn't say that the AK is responsible for killing Jews, I said that some members of the AK murdered Jews, including survivors of the Warsaw Uprising and the escape from Sobibor. Of course, one should also point out that Jews also murdered gentiles in the same time period.

As for this book, I am absolutely astounded that anybody could write a book about something which is so utterly obvious. And I'm flabbergasted that anybody would attempt to claim that these events didn't occur: it is all so well documented. But then what would I know, I'm the only person posting in this thread who has been to all of the AR camps more than once.

Hmph. Whatever truth is or isn't in his books, the guy sure has some unhealthy obsession with writing books about Those Evil Polacks.

Besides, what's wrong with impoverished people searching for dead people's valuables? It's not like they need them anymore. If I knew there's a treasure hidden in the forest somewhere near me, I'd be there with a metal detector in an instant.

Question is who is paying for his books, or ho is paying him for writing them?

Its not at all suprising really , if you are struggling to survive , you will do whatever it takes...

In Lenningrad , which was cut off and under seige by the Germans , the people there were eating the corpses of the dead....

Poor people robbing the dead is not so shocking in wartime...

He's Polish born, so he probably feels some connection there.


Two groups. One, the ones who purchase "holocaust pûrnography" - the ones who want to be shocked by what else happened to Jews. Two - Poles. Despite claiming to be disgusted and so on, they'll still buy the book.

Not hard to figure out that there's a huge market right there for a book that details how Poles were digging up Treblinka to find jewels.

Just in wartime? Call me amoral but I think it's a terrible waste to just dump dead person's belongings in their grave to rot with the corpse. I just don't get what is so special and sacred about it. If my family is stupid enough to do that to my stuff, I'll be happy if some poor fvck diggs it all up one day.

If you have a constant source of free publicity, why not make use of it? The unhealthy obsession seems to be one which certain people have about a certain professor.


I would much imagine that the people who buy his books pay for them.


The same people that you turned your back on when you betrayed Poland so that you could become an American. Jan Gross is one of your people: Poles are not.


An interesting claim, although one which does somewhat beg the question 'If a Professor of History at Princeton University is not a historian to you, who is?'


Sorry, missed this the first time round. It wasn't only belongings which the diggers were after, there were also gold teeth to be had (although most had been removed). This happened in many locations in Poland. There's a particularly moving bit in Martin Gilbert's Holocaust Journey by a woman who survived the holocaust and on her return to the Warsaw ghetto goes to see her father's grave and finds skulls strewn all over the cemetery.

Yeah sure I see how Russian sympathizers/closet Russians on this forum like yourself never get offended at anything said about Russians. LOL

One time you were going on and on, how "terrible" it was for Poles to think badly of Russians based on what the Soviet Russians did to them, when NOBODY was even talking about the Russians LOL. No no Russians don't care about what people think about them. LOL

What exactly does Poles digging up Jews have to do with the Russians...?

I'm not sure he is so rigorous. In fact he appears to be a very sloppy writer (I'm not even sure he deserves he deserves to be called a historian):

not long ago the Holocaust industry acclaimed a massive but worthless book by Daniel Goldhagen entitled Hitler's Willing Executioners. Gross's slight volume amounts to a Goldhagen for Beginners. Resembling Hitler's Willing Executioners in ways small and large, Neighbors bears the unmistakable imprint of the Holocaust industry. By Holocaust industry, I mean those individuals and institutions exploiting the Jewish genocide during World War II for political and financial gain.

...Neighbors is replete with glaring internal contradictions. In one place Gross reports that Poland's postwar communist regime prosecuted Poles "who engaged in the murder of Jewish people," even torturing the perpetrators to extract confessions. (1) In another place he maintains that killing Jews "was not an offense that would warrant stern prosecution by a Stalinist judiciary." (2) In one place Gross credits himself with the novel discovery that perpetrators of the Holocaust used, in addition to modern technology, "primitive, ancient methods and murder weapons." (3) Yet, three pages later he quotes from a prominent memoir published years ago that perpetrators of the Holocaust used "pitchforks and kitchen knives."(4) ...

normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=3&ar=7

The above by Norman G. Finkelstein

Do feel very welcome to write to Princeton and share your opinion with them: I'm sure that they will be precisely as interested in it as we all are.

It really is so amusing to see so many Poles (plastic and otherwise) jumping up and down screaming that an Ivy League professor of history is not a real historian when their own pet historian wasn't able to secure a post as professor at an Ivy League university.

And yet, the worst part of all is that they refuse to recognise him as one of their own - despite - being Polish born!

Amusing none the less - just how many Ivy League professors does Poland have, anyway?

Harry wrote:


it's the same story over and over on PF and in this country in general. heaven forbid you criticise Poland. i just don't understand it.

I think of my own country and I could sit down with anyone, american or not, I don't care where you're from, and I could discuss 1,001 things that **** me off about the USA, yet Poles don't seem to be able to do the same and the usual strategy is to bash another country. It's that knee jerk "well look how it is in country A, B and C so neeeaahhhhh!" reaction.

cut the crap fuzz , nobody is digging up some forgotten and minor details from the american history or make up stories to fit a thesis! and you still call people questioning american politics anti-Americans !

So, cut the crap with your double standards !

As for Gross this polish born jew is selling his knowledge of polish language for money, and Ive league is full of Marxists and others, hardly big deal!

Gross education is sociology, so his claim as being historian is a lie! Don't know who pulled all strings to have him installed as a historian in univ, and why, all I know that he was lying about Jedwabne and that what matters !He cannot be trusted and defiantly he is not historian!

And why was that?

A rather unfortunate choice of words there. Perhaps the problem in the eyes of some Jews is that Polish grave robbing would like to be forgotten and minor by some Poles?


How unfortunate that Princeton disagree with you.


Because his work contained "scientific flaws" and, according to a US court in which he tried to sue the university, because of "the manner and substance of his academic interpretation of historical events occurring some 40 years earlier."

If I could have a dollar for every time a Princeton prof spews garbage...


"we"? Are you going through a multiple personality issues?


Nothing to do with Finkelstein's qualifications and you know that very well. Unless you feel more qualified that one on the leading intellectuals alive today:

youtube.com/watch?v=P8ENawcSliA
Brain frozen today, or just acting stupid?
How is a son of Jewish parents, and born in the US "Polish" born?


Well, if you insist Finkelstein is "Polish born" then there are a huge number of "Polish born" Ivy League professors.


So you're OK with people criticizing Poland but you flip when they do the same to the US? I don't understand that either.

How would you feel if someone did it to your family graves (especially if they were brutally murdered)?


man, I thought you're much better than that.

It doesn't matter if this is about the Jews or anyone else, stealing from the dead is just disgusting.

I imagine I'd probably be quite upset. Hence the appeal of this book.


Given the utter desperation in Poland in those times, I ask you - what's particularly horrific or shocking about it?

They did what they had to do to survive. It's not pretty, pleasant - in fact, it's pretty damn awful - but do you think they would have done it if they had the choice not to?

If one is in a bad situation and steals food to survive, I'm going to even help him but they dag for gold (what else?) to get richer and this goes way beyond any possibility of classifying what they did as an act of desperation (unless desperation to become rich quick, lol).

I'm sorry DD but I don't find any excuse for their actions.


I bet, it wouldn't take long for us to find links about stealing from the dead. I personally believe that there's always a choice other than to steal, rob or kill, especially from the dead.

What I'm saying here is not directed against anyone in particular, it's my general opinion about it.

You just answered it, they're Polish born not real Poles. They have a country of their own now and should take care of it cause Arab population is rising fast.


I'm Polish you dummy, i'm not gonna explain it 1000 times.

Such a pity that we are not talking about the views of a single Princeton professor when it comes to the 'discussion' of whether Gross is a historian: that Gross is a historian is clearly the consensus view of Princeton university and the university as a whole. If they thought that he wasn't, they wouldn't have accepted him as a professor of history.


Perhaps you might like to note that Finkelstein is not a historian: he is a political scientist, which explains why he has worked lecturing in political science and was denied a tenured position in political science (which was not at an Ivy League university either).


Given that you know neither who wanted to be a professor of history nor what an Ivy League university even is, you aren't really in a position to ask if people are acting stupid.


An interesting stance, given that Finkelstein has never been a professor and has never worked at an Ivy League university.


To be fair, it's not as if the dead needed those things and the living certainly did.


Unlike people who swore that they have no allegiance at all to Poland and pledged their allegiance to a foreign power for entirely selfish reasons (i.e. people like you), those Poles were never anything except Polish.


No, you are a liar and a traitor.

It doesn't matter, it's just disgusting.

Btw. it's illegal too.