Poland - Ukraine. Młodzież Wszechpolska against Ukrainians.

Remember that Poland has always had a diverse set of viewpoints and attitudes to politics and culture (as has Ukraine, though the countries have faced a different set of challenges). Poland of course has a centuries old liberal tradition, something that Ukraine never had the chance to develop.


Nationalism, whether Polish, Ukrainian, British, Chinese etc is often the diametric opposite of patriotism.

Can you explain that one as I had always thought the two were hand in hand.

There is no patriotism without some form of nationalism (though not all forms of nationalism include patriotism)

Each nation has a different nationalism like each has a different folk music. Only a fool or a simpleton would have claimed that folk music is the same in every each country.

Polish nationalism technically is nationalism at all. The linguistic differences form a barrier here. Narodowiec and nationalist are not the same thing.

Neither are an entirely positive thing, rather like the in Ukraine. One is in fact destructive.

A capacity to get past old injustices and to reconcile and make peace are a sign of patriotism and magnanimity. Few nations would wish to be seen as being defined by bearing historical grudges.

There you go projecting again.... not everyone in the world shares your values and/or wants to become a deracinated westernized cosmopolitan with no loytalty beyond their bank account.

No, I never tried to praise someone. And I've just said the Catholic spirit they promote could be a unifying factor that Ukraine has to accept to become a part of Europe.


Some questions do not have a simple answer and looking for the common ground depends on both sides. Poland's view of the situation is clear while Ukraine escapes from reality and avoids responsibility by all means - and that's the reason why we can't move on.

off-topic posts binned
How does any of that relate to Mlodziez Wszechpolska's opinion about Stepan Bandera?

Stephan Bandera acted like a Somalian dog.

Was he himself that bad? All I know is wikipedia which suggests that he himself was not connected to massacres (being interred in a German camp at the time) and didn't necessarily agree with Lebed (who was involved in the massacres).

In a word, no. He was a world apart from the nationalist thugs who were hell bent on exacting revenge for the forced polonisation of previous years.

Nationalist is not always a positive thing, it depend on a context and a country, Narodowiec is always a positive thing.


are you slow? it is nor about grudges is about today and a fact that people like Bandera and others are being introduced into the Ukrainian schools as their national heroes.


Righto, Hitler as far as historical fats are concerned never personally supervised mass killing never executed anyone himself, the same goes for Himmler he actually never have had killed anyone, once while witnessing an execution he became so sick he had to leave, he was a typical pen pusher, you can met such as he even today. I'm sure if you could travel in time you could have a nice chat with him and concluded that such a nice normal person cannot be that bad.

They created an ideology and a plan that had been executed. What are implying? That ethnic cleansings are generally OK?

It's never positive and is based on hatred, insecurity and exclusion.


Of course. He was part of their independence struggle. He wasn't entirely positive, but as with Poland, Hungary, Russia, Myanmar, nationalist politics are never good.

That sounds like a jr high school student. Some degree of moderate nationalism is good while not enough nationalism and you get Cologne on New Years Eve and Rotherham (or Somalia or Cambodia or the Islamic State).

Nonsense, you don't know first thing about Polish ideology of the national democracy. Sorry, I have forgotten you're a commie for you everything what is not red enough is bad and fascism. whatever.


Sure, he was also a part of the ideological movement that stand for mass murder, ethnic cleansing, primitive racism and was worse than Hitler and Stalin deeds.

Each of them had a world power on his disposal so they are famous, they i.e. Ukrainian fascists didn't even had a country and their activity was limited to Poles and Jews and it had a huge impact only locally. It doesn't mean its not important.

Your comparison of Bandera to other independence movements is insulting and ignorant.

A tainted phrase, due to the toxic endecja regime and their successors

Remind us about the settlement and forced Polonisation of the region, in the years prior to it returning to Ukraine

Yet I cannot find them in the off-topic bin!


This was however not as bad as the Great Famine inflicted on the Ukraine by your beloved Soviet Union in the 1930s ...

Not mine. That's even a very strange thing to say.

Worth mentioning that the famine, though concentrated in the Ukraine, also affected parts of Russia, and is something that must never be repeated.

The difference is that Ukraines care and Russians.... don't. Russians tend to show a clear pattern of not caring when their government kills people (don't matter who).

We can see this now in Russia and within their sphere of influence. Between Poland and Ukraine, relations are good. It's only a few on either side who enjoy dwelling on past enmity

What are you even talking about? Endecja never had been in power, I mean that once upon the time they have formed a coalition and took a part in a one of - pre -1926 coup - government for w while or some such but not for long and than JP and his sidekicks introduced an authoritarian undemocratic regime in Poland.


That is a very peculiar sentence. Let me tell that is a biased nonsense and then some of the same. If you request it I can straighten out your somewhat twisted and convoluted views. Just ask. However it has to be in the random thread.

However the main point is that you failed to blame it on ND just because they were not in power before the war.


What was not that bad? The fact that in the Polish state, Polish language and laws took the precedence? What Ukraine eh? Before 1991 there was no Ukraine, only a soviet administrative region had been called Soviet Republic Of Ukrainian which meant nothing in the reality. Ruled by the totalitarian regime from Moscow.

In that context incorporation and theft of the ancient Polish lands by the soviet union can be called 'returning to Ukraine' only by a soviet or a commie.

Fortunately, though not without trying, including an attempted coup d'etat. Their heirs were certainly doing their damndest to slip in the back way before history intervened.


It's existed for centuries in one form or another, however (rather like a country you used to live in years ago) it hasn't always had its own state due to rapacious neighbours.

Why shouldn't be trying? They were majority of the popular support in Poland before the war. Only due to stupid leftist who introduce a moronic electoral system they couldn't get there.

As for trying, there were some individual and they had nothing to do with ND or little to do.


BS, it existed as a geographical region. It is not about a state but about a nation. There was no nation, there was no culture to fall back to. No much of the history, less than Normandy, or Bretons, not even comparable with Burgundy.

It has little to do with neighbours. It date back to 12th century that whatever political organization that existed which by the way had been created by the conquering Normans/Rus from today Sweden, fall prey to the Mongolians.

However I'm talking about Lwow and this area. It has been land that the grand duchy of Kiev took from Poles in the 990', and that land was going to and fro until in 1340' Polish King inherited it and incorporated that land into the Polish Crown. Dusted.

Młodzież Wszechpolska isn`t against Ukrainians. To say that are they against Ukrainians would be vulgarization of their approach. So, its not against but its critics of something that deserve to be criticized. Młodzież Wszechpolska is rather organization of Polish patriots. Even, at this moment, most honest and most realistic political organization in Poland.

And who would that be?


Indeed, the Ukrainian nation. It exists.


Irrelevant.

Its disgusting when this jon357 and Anglos likes him defend Ukrainians from Poles and from other Slavs. Truly disgusting and hypocritical. As if we don`t know what would desire sinister Anglos.

are


Not that it's relevant to much. They're a proud nation, with a very strong sense of identity, and good relations with Poland, sharing a dislike of Russia

jon357, you don`t know situation.


Actually, Serbians were first to recognize Ukrainians and unique nation. Confronted even Russia on that question. My dear, Ukraine is full of monuments to medieval Serbs. Then also, Serbians were first to recognize Ruthenians as also unique ethos.

Moreover, considering we are on internet where people coming to learn, I would give you first class information. Serbia (Yugoslavia) was first to recognize Ruthenians as nation, as national minority. Did you know that at a time when started dissolution of Yugoslavia, Serbia by its constitution was `state of all its citizens`. Much later, by pressure of EU, in accordance with aligning Serbian laws with EU`s standards, Serbia changed that and today is `state of Serbian people and all citizens who live in Serbia`. See, at the same time EU (western Europe) supported openly pro-Nazi Croatian secessionists, openly mafia pro-Islamic Albanian separatists and openly pro-Nazi-Islamic Bosnian separatists. Go figure that.

See? See how you know little. And that thanks to your following of mainstream media. Sure, that makes you more full of yourself but ultimately also more stupid. I mean, that`s how it appears to be.


Essentially. Those who are 100% sure who they are. You have Ukrainians fully national aware, while majority still consolidate itself within national awareness.


If you go to Russian forum you could say `good relations with Russia, sharing a dislike of Poland` and you wouldn`t be quite right, same as you now aren`t quite right. All in all, seasonal changes affects Ukrainians now.


Its very relevant. With all ethnic Slavs. Yes, its another question that Russia sometimes manipulated with that fact. On the other side, Russians think that other Slavs sometimes manipulate with Russia over that same Slavic meta-ethnicity. Let me tell you, that is also correct. That`s exactly how Polish prince Czartorisky via Serbia affected Russia prior to WWI and as you know, Poland got its independence in a final outcome. Go ask Russians how much they paid `pan-Slavic feelings` in their blood. Thinking of their causalities in WWI they would tell you to go to hell with your question, I guess.

Not to mention, when we speak about `Ukrainians` (nationally aware and those who would yet become) that at least 50% of them have Serbian blood due to mixing in last let`s say 400-450 years. See, at the same time at least 20-30% ethnic Poles and Russians have Serbian blood. What I want to tell you, we Serbians knows what is relevant for Ukrainians, not Russians. Not Poles.

Do you now understand. At least something.

I shall remind you that a Ukraine was created as a result of the Treaty of Hadiach on the 16the of September 1658. It was designed to elevate the Cossacks and Ruthenians to the position equal to that of Poland and Lithuania in the Polish-Lithuanian union and in fact transforming the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth into a Polish-Lithuanian-Ruthenian Commonwealth or Rzeczpospolita Trojga Narodów.

As they declared in the act, they united themselves with one another as: wolni z wolnymi, równi z równym, zacni z zacnymi.

By the God, good reminder. Commonwealth was really something. Not only for those times but even now, to me, sound as FREEDOM. Sarmatism was behind that. Our deep loyalty to the paths of the ancients. EU is joke in comparison to Commonwealth. Abominable joke.

I want Poland to be capable to offer FREEDOM once more!!!!!!