Poland's Truth Commission "IPN" to be de facto closed

That's a rather poor return for our money!


Polonius. You profess to be such a Catholic, yet you have little to no understanding of a thing called "Forgiveness". Walesa practices it, why don't you?

Incidentally, the paper hasn't been "hotly opposed" - they just think, like grown ups, that the past is the past and that we should work together to build Poland.

I don't think so - both his parents were dead then, I think, his brother in Sweden, but in Unia Wolności there were people like Maleszka, who were afraid of this archives...

It would have been much better to adopt the German system with the Stasi files. Here in Poland PIS/IPN (the same crowd) is using its information peace meal to discredit anybody critical of the PIS-ONR crowd...

A lot of my Polish friends are telling that the wholesale opening of the old archives would not suit the Polish church for example.

No, I mean the people who run the Wybiórcza camp and trace their roots to largely 'Moldovan' stalinists, commie secret police types, etc. People of 'Moldovan' ancestry may account for a scant fraction of 1% of Poland's population, but what is the percentage at the editorial offices of GW or among the membership of the luckily now defunct Unia Demokratyczna and Unia Wolności? Why should such a tiny minority group, steeped in a stalinist family heritage, be allowed to shape Polish public opinion?. GW was to have been the paper of Solidarity and the entire anti-communsit opposition, but Michnik soon hijacked it, turned it into a 'KORite Courier', cleverly pulled the right strings behind the scenes and turned it over to his 'Moldovan' compatriots in the Agora corporation, By then, all Wałęsa could do was prohibit them using the Solidarity logo on their front page

I don't think it's much of a secret that the Church doesn't want these archives opened wholescale - the revelations that some priests were informers has already hurt the Church on various occasions, and if people started to discover that their local priests (who are mostly still in place!) were collaborating too, it would cause untold problems. The opponents of the Church would seize upon it, too - and even within the RCC, they would be using it against each other (heck, they already have).

Polonius' version of history is rather amusing, but bears no relation to reality.


I think you'll find that public opinion shapes Gazeta Wyborcza, not the other way round. As much as it pains me to admit it, the same applies for Gazeta Polska and Radio Maryja - this is all on the back of public opinion.

Christians must forgive. But to qualify for forgiveness, the sinner must confess his sins, express sincere contrition and do penance. It's as plain as that!

Interesting view. So when the sinner doesn`t, a christian can`t forgive?

Who are you to decide who qualifies for forgiveness and who doesn't?

I quote, from the Bible.




Christianity does not require one to seek forgiveness in order to be forgiven.

Now, Polonius, as a self-proclaimed Catholic, how do you feel about demanding apologies when Jesus makes it clear that it isn't required?

As I said - President Walesa forgave them, like a true Catholic.

Around 10% of Poland's clergy are suspected of some form of collaboration with PRL agents either for profit or from fear. What was the percentage amongst journalsits, writers, actors, academics, entertainers, publishers, policemen, firefighters, commie-era, MPs or world travellers like Kapuścinski?

RE Wałęsa's firgiving natutre, he somehow cannot forgive anyone who wanted his files investigated and publicised. He actually overthew a government in 1992 when he feared exposure. It was that move that derailed any serious attemtps at decommunisation. It was better and more convenient to sweep it all under a rug. That explains his un-Christian hatred of the Kaczyńskis whom, BTW, he has never forgiven.

There is a thing called justice. Until about a year ago, retired red bigwigs were getting fatcat pensiosn while the victims they had beaten, tortured and otherwise persecuted were barely getting by on their meagre old-age pensions.

Normal everywhere. In the UK, US and Poland too, a high court judge or an army general (even a secret service one) gets a bigger pension than a dustman. Perhaps some of the US ex-military who ordered napalm to be dropped on tribespeople or who armed fascist death squads in central America should be stripped of their ill-gotten money. I would be against that since old-age pensions should not, repeat not, be messed with however according to your logic......

Worth mentioning too that the ducks and their totalitarian cronies stripped money from some people's pensions but the people you refer to as victims didn't get a penny extra on theirs. Not exactly Robin Hood...

Justice has nothing to do with forgiveness. As Jesus preached, you must forgive.


We all remember those nurses, too.

you forgot: before receiving forgiveness the culprit should repentant, ask for forgiveness and right a wrong...

I've just shown you several quotes from Jesus where it's made clear that no such requirement exists.

delphi, are you catholic?

Let me guess, you really want him to be Jewish.

why do you think so? They are only catholics and jews [not Polish and Jews, mind] in this world?

No, Jewish obviously.

Read this beautiful article about forgiveness from some Catholic media - catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=26940

Nowhere does it state in Catholicism that the person must repent before being forgiven. That merely relates to confession, nothing else.

Don't you just love the Abrahamic faiths? There is always a hair just waiting to be split. Each of them always take great satisfaction in the delusion that their way of following the same invisible sky wizard is better than anyone else's.

Give me secularism any day.

It's coming fast - and that will work the same sort of people who set up the IPN into such a lather of anger that they'll alienate people yet further.

Coś za coś. Everythign has its down side. Increased secularism and the simultaneous decline of devout Christians who take the 10 Commandments seriously will mean more broken families, broken hearts, unahappy children, misguided youths, substance abuse, deviant behaviour and even more extreme 'here and now' egoism (get-rich-quick schemes, scams, etc.) than we've got at present. I know some bozo will stand up and say 'look at the crime in Catholic countries', but when more true believers (not just baptised Catholics but those who live theri faith) are replaced by secularists, there will be even fewer restraints and inhibitions against all forms of misconduct. The slogan of the day will be (it already is in many places): You only live once!