Does it seem to you that Russia loves Poland now?

That's from foreign perspective, please. I've got the Polish perspective, with Putin friend - Smolensk trap - crosses scandal - gas expensive.

Truthfully - most Western Europeans are too tied up with the post-credit-crunch fallout & where the mortgage is coming from (or should that be, the next round of $_COUNTRY's Got Talent) to pay that much attention to 'foreign' affairs right now.

More constructively - er, no, based on the comparative dearth of analysis (at least in the British press). What little there is seems to confirm most 'informed' UK readers' views on the matter:

- Russia (ie, Russian Govt) doesn't do love

- Putin speaks with forked tongue, ie what goes out to the domestic audience is once thing, what gets said on the international stage quite another

- Poland? Ah, yes, super place. Jacinta and Hermione have both had their conservatories done by this wonderful little man, Jacek was his name I think, ever so reasonable...

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/6123485/Analysis-Vladimir-Putins-Poland-war-speech-will-go-down-a-storm-in-Russia.html - Putin's Poland war speech (Sept 1, 2010)

From what I hear from Polish friends, the Rssian people themselves seem to have no problem with Poland... it's the ruling administrations which have the problem.

They're pretending to "love" poland because they know they can get further by being nice than hostile.

Loves or makes love?Anyway do not overestimate Poland's role in international politics.In best case they are a soldier.

I dont even think that Russia loves it self. Just look how it threats its own people...

Well... since the basic strategy has remained the same since mr.Poo was enthroned, you can't really expect anything new from the Russian government at that point. Putin is a vindictive and a small man (both physically and spiritually) who has no respect towards people whatsoever, be one a Pole or a Russian. The only thing that has recently offered a little hope was that Medvedev as a man of naturally higher moral standards than those of Putin could propose a different strategy. We'll see...

To my great misfortune I should agree with the above point that in putin's Russia money and the force are the only two motive powers of the regime. Human is nothing here.

As for the Russians ourselves... well I'm sure that the vast majority has at the very least never been hostile towards Poles. On a personal level I don't know of any occasion when a Russian and a Pole didn't get along well. The only my worry was that the younger generation of Russians simply don't know much about Poland and don't show the interest to learn anything thereof. Somewhat of a vicious circle. However since more and more people can afford to travel abroad, choose philological specialization in unis or even simply use the Internet the interest gets stirred. Tragic events in Smolensk has played a large part too.

Me neither.
Let's hope for the best and prepare for the worst!

When vodka talks,the war stops.

Russians have major problems within their own ranks. When ex-Soviet Union members broke away, Russia had to redefine its identity. They made the stupid decision of giving Chechens some latitude and they have paid for that with a lot of blood. Poles are good enough to treat groups like their Tatars with respect. Russians tend to be more chauvinistic. Poles may feel some bad will towards certain foreigners but they tend not to act on it like Russians do.

Relations will never be that good after how the Russians betrayed Poles in WWII. There is much potential amongst common people as there is substantive cultural overlap. Poles and Russians are not always that different but guards have to be dropped first.

Things have changed some since the Jewish oligarchy got punted from Russia.

With your common history? No, of course not. Poland needs to wake up. There are too many conflicting interests with Russia for the Poles to be buying their natural gas. Poland needs to generate its own energy resources (coal, ag, wind, etc.) pronto. In the mean time quit playing footsie with the Russkies and buy your gas from Norway, even it's twice as expensive. You have no conflicting interests with Norway. They are not a threat. Buy their gas. Stay away from Russia.

... says the black pot, calling the kettle "black".

At least Poland doesn't kill for its resources, eh?

Because we don't have enough firepower :-)

You guys are next, then. Got resources? :P

:)

Russians are usually friendly towards other Slavic nations and they don't understand Poles sometimes they regard them as traitors of Slavic cause etc.

Err.. it is totally the other way round. Russian gov. is nicer becasue Poles are buying a lot of their gas... So, if you want Poland to pay twice as much and lost one crucial ingriedient of "love" then that's just crazy ;). Since Rusians became capitalistic they have no greater friends that those who buy their resources. The bigger trade turnover is, the bigger friends they are...

Of course at the same time Poland should diversify which actually is happening as we speak :-) I would gladly report that recently construction of gasport for LNG in Swinoujscie started. What is more Polish gov. settled issues with Germans who blocked some funds from EU regarding this project so there will be additional money for it. It should be operational around 2014.

For the first, don't you see inconsistency of your statement? Or what you mean by "latitude"?
The latitude had been given to them long before the first Chechen war. They felt free at 80th... they felt free to do whatever some Chechen groups wanted and get away unpunished. From my perspective that was a leading cause for the starting the war.

A bit of figures... Migration of the Russians from Chechnya in 1988-1989 was 5 times bigger than that of 1978-1979. It took ten years to shorten the Russian population in Chechnya tenfold from 30% in 1989 to 3,7% in 2002. Genocide? Yes. Who's responsible? Some Chechen bandgroups and the Russian government which turned a blind eye onto it.


Roy Conrad. Grozny... a few days
Roy Conrad

Of course later, especially when putin finally came to power the crimes became mutual. The Russian part of the crimes are well described in Putinskaja Rossija (putin's Russia) and in vtoraja Chechenskaja (the second Chechen (war) by Politkovskaja. However she doesn't almost dwell on Chechen crimes.

And yes, we treat Tatars well too, but there's much difference between a Chechen and a Tatar as between Chuckchee and a Jew. One can hardly deal with those who have no respect for your faith, your lifestyle, your values.

I would be happy to see Chechens equal part of our society, fully integrated into it but it will take time. It's not going to happen when either putin or kadyrov are at the helm.

Another thing that struck my eye in your statement was the word "chauvinistic". Yes we are chauvinistic towards Chechen (not towards Tatars) but it couldn't be otherwise since the policy of our government is to trigger such a mood in the society, to make us hate Chechens, to make the conflict endless.


An offtop.... I heard from a Russian Pole (who don't speak Polish though) that a cashier on a station didn't want to sell tickets to Szczecin cause he couldn't say the name of the city Polish enough. An older Pole who stayed next in the line helped him...

I can't imagine a Russian being that chauvinistic.

It just appears to me that Chechens were given some discretion early days as to self determination. They wanted their own state and then Russian leaders realised the problems that would arise. Their access to the Caspian Sea would be jeopardised and that didn't sit well with Yeltsin, Putin&co.

I understand, Sasha. I was discussing that very point this morning. The govt tries to engender violence and hatred but the people cannot or shouldn't fall for that. Why should you be killed by a Chechen for being a Russian that sees the Chechen cause and may even support it a little??

That's not chauvinistic, Sasha, that's just ignorant. My friend also didn't get what he wanted due to saying the word only fractionally different. It is frustrating!

What does this comment have to do with the price of tea in China???

Hello. The subject is Poland vis-a-vis the Russians.


The Russians weren't nicer to the Ukulele's a couple winters ago. Russki = Overbearing and Heavy handed.

Well, if you had quoted the post in its entirety, perhaps the irony of an American offering such advice to anyone wouldn't have escaped you:


Given its vast geographic and geologic landscapes, America is in a MUCH better position than Poland to "generate its own energy resources".

But, America evidently chooses not to "generate its own energy resources" - at least not nearly enough to meets its own aggregate demand.

What America does do is wage phony 'Wars on Terror' to control foreign energy supplies and routes, killing millions of innocents in the process.

Last summer, I was sitting and eating noodles at the Beijing airport and two young Russian "businesswomen" sat down next to me and my wife. They ordered two cokes and wipped out a fifth of Johnny Walker from the duty-free shop, already dented, and proceded to celebrate their successful business trip. How can you not love these people?

On the personal level, I like Russians very much, and I have visited the cities between Warsaw and the Baikal, but on the national level they are a constant threat to Poland and Europe, not to mention to their own citizens. With the head czekista in charge, they are slightly closer to being a democracy than Saudi Arabia. The propaganda of the present Polish government's 'warming up relations' is just that - propaganda. On the second thought, it is warming up in the sense that the Russians get what they want, but only because they have had an excellent network of agents in Poland, and a nitwit of a president and prime minister in Poland, and a hord of useful idiots in Poland to assist them. There are lots of examples to bring up but there has been a drain of good posters on this forum lately, so let's see if this thread goes anywhere. A recent question, why have the Polish side not received the original black boxes from the Smolensk aircrash? Give me a reason.

... as are US missiles in Poland, to Russia.


... like USA. But the Russians don't torture Arabs in Poland.


The West seems to be pleased with them both.

I think both East and West still view Poland as they historically have: as a vested interest.

You didn't answer the question, Richie. Try again.


So is col. Putin.

Let me recommend a book to read: goodreads.com/book/show/6922826-unia-sowiecka-czy-zwi-zek-europejski

Maybe not to your satisfaction like that


might have.

But I rebutted most of your contentions in the prefacing of "the question" - with facts. That's enough for me, Jolly...

:)

Your rebutal confirms my previous observation.

Your


is misspelled.

I'll give you another chance. Why, according to Russian law, are the Polish officers murdered in Katyn still concidered common criminals? Look at the thread title before you answer.

They are not nice if someone don't pays the bills...

Anyway, it is for sure not easy to have a Russia as a neighbour. But it is astonishing that many people including some on this forum thinks that Poland can because of whatever reason ignore or even run an openly hostile politics toward whatever gov. Russia have.

We cann't switch places with UK or with USA... Many opinions from those places are usually totally out of our context which is as usuall in history growing cooperation between Germany and Russia... Either we choose to gain on this cooperation or we will lose... Time to put sabres into closet, really (but we should sharpen them regularly just in case ;)).

Sorry again for dispelling ilussions but Poland can be ignored most of a time, Russia and Germany most of a time can't.


Can you imagine the amount of compensation that Russia would have to pay? Polish officers is a small issue here. If they started to change decrees of soviets than they would have to do the same for their own citizens. We are talking about milions of people here who would get a possibility to sue their own country... It has potential to bancrupt them. I don't believe any serious change of decrees happens in next few decades just because of money issue...

Based upon the only comment for this book, it looks to be a profound read:

"Bukowski had for a limited time access to the Gorbachev archives in Moscow. He copied a lot of documents which he discusses in this book, which show the European Union is a continuation of the Soviet Union, and is more than the communists during the Cold War could have hoped for. A real eye opener!"

(It would be nice if she were so adamant about 'multiculturalism' in her own home state of Israel.)


Given my last post, for the same reason the whole truth of Smolensk will never come to light.