Premier says no recession for Poland

The point is that the West is not better. A young German in Berlin will be very lucky to get anything but a minijob, whereas in Poland, the young Pole can often get reasonable employment that pays more than in Berlin, but with significantly lower expenses.


Plenty of people have observed and commented on how Germany's economic strength actually comes from quite severe institutionally-approved exploitation of workers.


Or they could simply learn about the situation for themselves and speak to some Germans about the situation with these minijobs.

The fact remains : one in five working Germans are employed in a job that pays them no more than 450 euro per month.

Thankfully in Poland, we have the utter abuse of self employment by unscrupulous businessmen who force their workers into being self employed so that they don't have to pay social insurance contributions. One has to wonder when the tax office will start putting a stop to this particularly vile practice.

That's not correct, Delph. In Germany, you'll get a boatload full of subsidies (rent, heating and more) from social services once you are below a certain monthly income threshold.

I've already said you are right. Absolutely spot on with your analysis. Clearly, you are not some deluded idiot who spends every spare minute of his free time attempting to win pointless internet arguments on some godforsaken forum for expats with far too much time on their hands, but rather a respected authority on European economics and employment law. I can only apologise for having completely misjudged you. In future, I shall be guided by your vast store of knowledge on Poland, gleaned by countless hours of intellectual debate in the chat room of Polish Forums, and discount as valueless all my business and real life experiences in the so-called 'real world'. I can only apologise for having completely misjudged you, and would like to offer my sincerest thanks for finally opening my eyes to the truth.

I've made this point a hundred times on PF, best advice is "why bother". Do you not know since 20004 Poland has been flooded with westerners seeking a better life. There are no poor Poles as they all make most of their money in the black economy(all stats are false) The 2 million Poles who left Poland 2004-5 just wanted to experience how poor people live. In reality mass emigration from Poland is an illusion.

I think Poles (and Westerners with any sense) should simply accept that 'Delphi knows best'.

I've been living in Poland for nearly twenty years.

I used to imagine that Germany and the UK were richer than Poland, but since coming on Polish Forums, I've changed my opinion completely.

I guess that to really understand what's happening in Poland, you should spend all your time on the internet, listening to the opinions of expats who don't speak Polish and never leave the 'comfort zone' of their virtual reality Poland.

Poles simply don't realise how lucky they are, and only needed someone like Delphi to tell them this.

Like I would ever lower myself to do the bidding of a known racist such as you.
#BringbacktheIgnoreButton


Let's call it Małopolska :P It sounds much more appealing than "Lesser Poland" ;)


It means that lots and lots of land is not being used productively.


I travel a lot thru Mało & Bieszczady and so much of the land is fallow...who owns it? Why isn't it being used?

If it's govt. owned why can't it be leased to farmers so that crops can be grown and herds can be grazed upon it?

Farmers would make some extra money and could increase the size of their herds/the yield from the crops they grow etc.


Exactly, it's the total inefficiency of it that I cannot understand.........well, I do I suppose. If one was to even suggest that local farmers were to form a Co-op to spread the distribution of goods & wealth you would probably be labelled a Stalinist, even though the system has been proved to work in countless areas of the Europe and the world already.

You offer your proof reading services to complete strangers, yet still can't spot the mistake.


I can only suggest the likes of Delphi and yourself set yourselves up as business consultants to the rural poor in Poland, and show them where they are going wrong. Who knows, you may show greater talent at telling farmers how to farm than you are at telling writters how to write.

I can only suggest you swivel on it baby.


Do I?
Funny, I don't advertise anywhere, unlike you I don't need to ***** myself out for work.
#rollinginitbaby


all the lolz

You ain't a writer, you're a so-called "teacher" with racist tendencies and a bad attitude.

But yea, it's so good to have you back on this forum, making quality contributions, full of insight and facts, all of which delivered with complete and utter objectivity.

You add so much to the debate. Really, truly is awesome to have you back again.

Have a great day brother.
#hugs

Anyone with a grasp of economics can see that the Polish countryside is hampered by the vast amount of small private farmers that simply aren't using the land to any sort of potential. As I keep saying, Poland could become a food superpower in Europe if she was to abolish KRUS - the short term pain would be worth the gain, particularly as Poland wouldn't have to administer CAP funds to a ridiculous amount of small "farms".

Going back on topic, one has to question the mysterious dramatic rise in self employment in Poland. Language schools are already notorious for being run by people who deliberately flout the law by requiring teachers to be self employed - could it be that this trend is spreading? It's certainly one of the more despicable practices, particularly as the money saved on ZUS goes straight to the language school owners pocket.

If there was a 'like' button it would be pressed right now.

+1 Delph and from what I'm seeing it's a practice that's spreading, unfortunately.

What really drings my gears though is the practice of pregnant women taking almost two years off work just to drop a sprog. I'm crucified on Zus, because women ain't working while preggers. Wtf is up with that, back home women work up until pretty much the last month or thereabouts. No so here...as soon as they fall pregnant they get a 'sick note' for some BS reason and then don't return to work until about a year after they've had the child.

I think the govt should hounding out these benefit frauds and putting them back to work. (I mean before they deliver of course - I wouldn't expect a woman to return to work before 6 months after delivering)

To be fair, not all of the money that is saved goes there; self-employed people pay less in overall tax than people who are employed (I know that I'm certainly ahead on the deal).

However, it's not all good: getting a mortgage (or any other loan) costs a fair bit more when one is self-employed.


There's a woman in my office who has officially been employed here for the last five years, I'd say she's actually been here for maybe six months of that time (three well timed kids).

That BS annoys the crap out of me...can't she be reported?

I like it. lol!

How do you know its fallow? Unused land has tree and bush growing on it, is that what you see?

You two make a lovely pair.

Looking at the working poor - class - pardon the Marxist term on here - ...in Poland and elsewhere in Europe I would definitely prefer to be poor in Poland then in the West. It is just better to be in a country from which you could immigrate for a temporary job, say seasonal job for few months and make enough $$ to live back home for many more months and be work free. Also I can hardly imagine any poor person in the West being able to buy/own property with some dead-end job. In Poland owning cheap but your own space is actually affordable and could be realistic project for anybody healthy and willing - not to mention that lots of home properties in Poland had been already acquired in privatization scheme for some small percentage of its value.

I'd say hope is here for the poor, not so for the poor in the West

Well, will you look at that.

Mr. Keyboard Warrior using derogatory, racist language against a poster.
You don't seem to have mastered the skill of debating while on your self-inflicted hiatus, have you?

A master debater you are not, but you are something that rhymes with it.

That one's worth saving for future use ;-)

Yes, it is. It's a disgusting practice - workers are ordered how to do their work and when, and they are no doubt treated entirely like normal employees. Meanwhile, the business owner pockets the 20% social insurance contributions that he was obliged to pay on top of the gross salary. It's even more disgusting when the business owners in question attempt to justify their practices by claiming that it's the only way to hire people.

It's one thing to do it in the creative industries, where workers may have external projects that they can also invoice for - but language teaching? really?


Entirely legal provided you know how to play the game of sick notes and maternity leave. With maternity leave increasing to a year, it's certain that women of child bearing age will be discriminated against even further in years to come. Then you get the language school owner popping up with his great deal where he pays you a gross amount provided you go self employed, and the women have no choice because of the actions of their peers.

Not my fault that it's called like this in English :P

Again, I have to ask, what land?
Is it land situated next to villages, fields?
Or do you mean land in the middle of nowhere or between cities where noone lives?
I'm asking because I still don't understand entirely what you mean.
I've visited a few countries in the West, as well as Slovakia, and other parts of Poland, of course. I didn't pay any special attention to the number of farms in each country, obviously, but I think I would notice if farms and pastures were popping up everywhere covering almost all land available o_O

You write about Bieszczady - it's a mountainous area, isn't? Soil in the mountainous area is of the poorest quality as far as the arable land is concerned.

My mum told me that the soil where my grandma lives is not the best too, it's sandy and there are many hills there. When it's raining the soil is going down the hill, everything is washed out and there your crops go. As you can imagine it isn't a rich area.


I have no idea who owns the land that isn't owned by anyone, my guess would be it belongs to the state.
As for leasing - I have no idea either, why don't you ask the government :P
Some of the land may be the property of national parks, especially in regions like Bieszczady, I imagine.
Sometimes you can also hear on the news that some ecologists say that there are endangered species of some insects, frogs, birds, otters, beavers, etc. and so from now on this land, meadow, swamp area, etc. is under protection and the surrounding land has to be under protection too.


People, Poland is years behind the West in many things so I don't understand why you think agriculture would be any different lol ;)
Of course, it's changing slowly, some farmers buy out lands and create bigger, modern farms, with modern facilities and equipment.
Of course, as usual, the problem may be money. Another problem, I suspect, may be the fact that many young people move to towns and cities. That's what my mum did and her two sisters. As you probably can imagine my grandma won't be modernising her farm and buying out land lol She had to sell all her animals except for chickens and geese, because she wasn't able to take after them anymore.

Another problem may be (but that's only my guess) is that probably it isn't easy to buy out lands because there are so many small fields that belong to different families and all of them may not be willing to sell their land. So it's rather pointless to buy one small patch of land here, and another over there, etc.

According to this article 80% of farms in Poland isn't bigger than 15 ha:


newseria.pl/news/beda_pieniadze_na,p1281522467

According to what I've read here the biggest complaints of small farmers (like the producers of cold cuts, sheep's milk cheeses, vegetable oils, juices and vegetables) are too complicated and unclear regulations, bureaucratic constraints and too few marketplaces:


senat.gov.pl/aktualnosci/art,5344,konferencja-male-gospodarstwa-rolne-szansa-rozwoju-rynku-lokalnego.html


And that's a good question, too, I suppose. Sometimes when we were going to visit my grandma in the countryside I would tell my mum: "Wow, what green grass!" and mum would tell me then that it wasn't grass, that it was young rye (or sth of this kind) and it simply hadn't grown yet ;)

Both.


Naw, then it's marked quite clearly.


That is quite possible, but if that's the case then the govt will be paying some fee to the landowner and everyone's a winner :)


That's true, I had mused on that already....I think for the govt, developing agriculture is pretty low on their to-do list. I think it should be higher personally, as the potential is quite grand.


Indeed so, I left my countryside life behind for bright city lights, and I certainly wouldn't have tolerated becoming a farmer back then.....now? Well, ya never know ;)


That's true too, but if it's state owned then I think it should be leased out to stimulate growth.....or even bought back by the state, under purchase orders where the owners are given its value.


It's like everything in this wonderful land we call home ;)
Marketplaces I don't however agree with, there are plenty of farmer's markets popping up around the place and like I tabled before, the idea of local farmers coming together and former a co-op should certainly be considered before dismissed.


It is, but I'm a farmer's son, I know fallow land when I see it ;)

As said, I think it's low on the priorities, but I imagine than in years to come it will become more important. However, I think now would be a good time to buy up surrounding land and turn them into larger fields, land is quite cheap in agricultural areas and if I was a larger French/German farmer with money to spare I'd be in the process of landgrabbing as we speak and turning the land to make a consistent profit.


What? No way!
So, if I ran a dodgy language school and 'hired' a teacher, by making them sign a barely legal contract I'd get to pocket some money myself?

So that's why so many morally corrupt people are attracted to setting up school.

And here's me thinking they just want to spread knowledge of the language.
Silly me.

Yes way. Employers have to pay an extra 18.19% on top of the gross salary to ZUS - so let's take your average unscrupulous language school owner. He knows that he can offer 50zl gross - so he convinces the worker to go self employed and 50zl gross is what he pays. He doesn't have the obligation to pay ZUS 18.19% on top of that, so he's sitting comfortably - the employee gets screwed, not the employer. As the person is self employed, he's supposed to shoulder the burden of the employer payments himself - so our language school owner is now 18% richer for doing nothing.

Those school owners who demand that workers go self employed are nothing but crooks.


Exactly. Add to the fact that it's a cash business, and you soon see why dishonest types like it so much.


Oh please ;) Still, on the good side, I doubt they'd survive a serious examination by the tax office were they to be so corrupt as to have all their teachers on a self employed basis, especially if those teachers are teaching formal classes.

Next person to make personal comment instead of adressing the topic will be suspended. If you want to argue bin welcomes you.

Yes, but employees pay more tax than self-employed people. People paying more tax does nothing to help a country avoid recession, does it?


I seem to remember a somebody recently saying something along the lines of "If you apply the principle that if you earn 4000zl as a self employed person, you pay 1000zl in ZUS and very little income tax (usually next to nothing if your accounts are done properly) - then a 25% tax rate that includes health care and pension contributions isn't really so bad." I wish I knew who it was that said that, I'd love to tell them that I agree with them.

Personally I'd say that more people being 'employed' as one-person companies could be very helpful for Poland when it comes to avoiding recession.

Good point, but then again, I guess someone has to pay for all those farmers on uneconomic farms getting their highly-subsidised KRUS.


No, it's not bad at all if the employer is acting in good faith - but I wonder how many genuinely do?


To be honest, I think they could start by abolishing much of the ridiculous laws that protect people on umowa o prace - I'm not surprised that many employers want people as self employed simply to avoid the minefield that is giving someone a proper contract here.

Then again, you may well be right - we all know that Poles like to spend to show off, so certainly less tax paid would do a lot to get people spending.

A good mate of mine work for a place which insisted on him setting up his own company. His boss was very open about the fact that he was was being employed that way because another person who did the same job as him had basically taken the last four years off by having a couple of brats. The really amusing part came when the woman in question returned to work and found out that my mate was taking home more cash than her (as the company had decided to just pay out the same amount that they were spending on her and let him sort out ZUS & taxes) and demanded a pay raise or she'd quit. She was very surprised when the boss happily said bye bye and replaced her with a woman who was willing to work as a one-person company.

Totally understandable - I know a few women who own small companies, and all of them are adamant on one thing - women have ruined it for themselves. I can't say I blame employers for this at all.

There is a fallow land because EU pays farmers for keeping it that way.


Be really careful about buying land in Poland. You would need to research before buying as there are plenty unresolved ownership issues in many areas.