Praising Poland can be dangerous

For what? To become an island between GDR and Russia? No way.

Europe was divided between Russia and USA as it became reality later.

perhaps you can do Poland a favour and go back to Scotland. I'm sure you'll find plenty of fellow Pole-haters in the sink estate pubs and aisles of Asda. Why live here if you hate everything so much, you must be a complete basket case.

Perhaps you can do Poland a favour and stop making the country look like a bunch of crybaby idiots who can't accept history for what it is - history.

WW2 happened, Yalta happened - get over it.

Incidentally, why would Harry want to go back to Scotland? I wasn't aware that he had anything to do with the place...

Oh my god, a Harry supporter. These are dangerous times.

may I remind you it was only last week Harry wrote that Hitler should have done a better job on the Catholic Poles or words to that effect. What a fine man...

Thing is, we are living it.

Jesus. And this is exactly what I mean by Poland being stuck in the past.

Other countries seem to be doing fine despite communism - Slovenia and Estonia are doing exceptionally well for themselves. What's Poland's excuse? Blaming communism is so old fashioned...

Then again, I guess blaming communism is a good way to avoid taking responsibility.

Estonia's economy, much like the other two Baltics, is a disaster and was hit harder by the crisis than practically any other country you care mention (I think of the EU countries, the Baltics experienced the biggest contraction). Granted the blame has little to do with communism, rather the banks of Scandinavia, a fact I think all three Baltic governments and people would agree with. Communism is no longer a valid excuse, I agree with you, but that's not to say the so called western allies should hold their heads high and forget the debt they owe a fair few countries in this part of the world.

A disaster? Actually, Estonia managed to use the crisis to meet the Euro convergence criteria and will enter the Eurozone on the 1st of January. I wouldn't call that a "disaster", nor was it in any danger of breaking the peg with the Euro and leaving ERM2.


Indeed - SEB bank is the biggest guilty party here.

Well, Germany certainly repaid the favour to Poland by allowing Poland to join the EU (and indeed, threatening to veto all expansion unless Poland joined). I have an interesting book on the EU, written about 2002 - and in it, it makes it clear that the EU will not expand unless Poland joins.

I'd also suggest that things such as extending Euro membership and Schengen to the poorer Eastern members are an olive branch. Still, Poland seems to have forgotten the help that she got from the West in securing independence in 1918 in the first place.

Poland is painfully struggling through the direct results of the past, so bear with us.


There is some truth in it, 20 years should be enough to get rid of more of that sh1t. Somebody mentioned, though, that you are intimately familiar with GazWyb et al? So you should know the reason why Poland is so deep in the past still.

And are racist slurs, such as "dumb Polacks", for this forum rules? Is the censorship of posts written by Poles trying to speak against the hate-spreading psychopaths, such as the Scottish one here, for the forum rules? It seems to me this forum is a medium designed to spread Polonophobic hate and racism. Who is its owner? I hear it's an American? What is his name?

A what? You mean Marshall Foch? The Versaille Treaty just used the opportunity to weaken Germany. Good for Poland, but nothing to be really grateful for. Couple of decades later confirms that evaluation.

Then look to the future. Poland has an exceptionally bright future as the leader of a mini-bloc within the EU - she's easily able to influence Lithuania, Ukraine, Slovakia and Hungary without too much effort. Latvia too, for that matter. The Germans also tend to respect Poland - after all, it's a huge potential trade partner.

There is absolutely no need to keep on crying about the past - the facts are known, now let's move on and concentrate on building a better Poland. Certainly, part of the problem is within the education system itself - the utter disgrace of Communism being barely taught in schools is unbelievable. I'm not surprised that publications do so well by ranting about communism - it's not taught in schools, so where else to learn about it?


If you ask me, the whole reason is that Poland seems unable to deal with her history in a rational, grown up way. I actually suggest that there should be a true, unbiased version of Polish history made - which sticks to verifable facts and doesn't seek to point the finger at anyone. If Poland can come to terms with her past (including the more unsavory aspects, as well as the undeniable successes) - then we can move forward.

Polish history is pretty tragic in some ways, but why are the successes never mentioned and celebrated?

I would call a 2009 contraction of somewhere around 15% pretty disastrous. The market might be over the worst and growth projected, albeit around 2%, but that should not ignore the fact that the last two years have left the baltic tiger looking like a starved zoo animal. recover it will, I'm sure, but the whole crisis has left all three looking far from the ferocious entity of before. I don't think I'm the only person who predicts a cautious uplift, a very cautious and at times awkwardly slow uplift.


point taken, name of the book incidentally? But my original point was it is not Germany that owes Poland, but the western allies. I think modern Germany has done an astounding and sincere job of atoning for the past. They will never wipe the slate clean, memories are too bitter, but they deserve complete credit for how far they have come.

No so simple, as I see it. Germans, right, no problem, I can feel it from both official and personal experiences. As for the rest, this dream has already been tested by Pentagonale, a concept of creating a bloc of post-com countries with similar past and similar economies, and similar potential for development. Tried, failed, forgotten.

Why? Poland can not influence Lithuania, first thing, unless by force. Ukraine is less nationalistic, still more than half of it gravitates towards Russia. Slovakia is an open question to me, but be serious, what do they really matter. Hungary goes it's own way, why would it need Poland, or just any alliance with neighbours. They'd look at Austria, rather.

What you say reflects my sentiments from the early post-com times. It was tried, it didn't work, and it is not a sole Polish responsibility, as other countries have their say too. It's not Commonwealth any more.


You seem to contradict yourself a bit. Poles should know, and the West should know. Poland has raised from a limbo, and has a lot to present in order to become a fully recognised personality, not just a breeding ground of cleaners, builders, and strawberry-pickers.


Ohh, right. Now do it. Create an unbiased history, in 20 years, while there are young and loud nationalisms around, and where there is a natural ignorance about the country kept in the closet for generations. And the problem is, that pointing fingers would be a significant part of this history, unfortunately. The West has to acknowledge this and that, before Poles stop 'whining'. Good thing is, I can see it happening, in the UK.

And the Jewish problem, sorry to stir muck...


They are, in Poland. Often ridiculed right here.

It is though, isn't it (a good way to avoid blame)? How can a people, per se, be held responsible for the actions of a government with no popular mandate, moreso given that it was foisted upon them by an alien power? Isn't it a non sequitur to say that Poles should be responsible for the actions of a government that was not democratically elected. I would have thought that's anathema to the concept of democracy.

I see you profess an interest in law - I'm no constitutional/international law buff but I'm pretty sure my proposal is fairly safe. I'd like your take on it, given your interest.


What about the Teheran Conference and HMG's contemptuous breaches of the Treaty of Mutual Assistance? Isn't one entitled to voice a grievance, and continue to voice it, until the perpetrator is recognisant?

If you'd like a background of my theories, have a look at my thread "Should HMG compensate..." so I don't have to repeat myself here with the minutiae. Feel free to respond on that thread....

Chris (sorry Harry) and Jonni, feel free to join the debate too chaps - I seem to recall you both leaving a similar debate without the benefit of your genuine comments some months ago - now's your chance to both respond - perhaps even swap notes perchance?