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Mass immigration to Poland - article and response


RevokeLisbon  
21 Oct 2009 /  #301
You just repeat popular false stereotypes. Neither the left is idealist or the right is all about money. This is just old leftist propaganda, however sound funny from somebody who declare opposition to this political agenda. Politicians and business that cooperate with them are bunch of hypocrites, they are neither leftist or rightist but totally opportunists.

And you are still living in the 1940s. The roles of the left and right have changed dramitically since then.

I will deal with the rest during the week.
MareGaea  29 | 2751  
21 Oct 2009 /  #302
see where you stand!

280

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
ShawnH  8 | 1488  
21 Oct 2009 /  #303
280

485

M-G (Liberal.)

:-)
Barney  17 | 1628  
21 Oct 2009 /  #304
And you are still living in the 1940s. The roles of the left and right have changed dramitically since then.

Lesser is correct in pointing out your populist hypocritical stance, neatly slotting people into pigeon holes

One doesn't exclude another. Beside of that, this is just your opinion! :)

Well spotted, note that I dont claim authority:)

I won't change my mind until somebody provide convincing argumentation.

Its always good to agree:)

By the way, why are you glad because of my Eurocentric viewpoint?

Because I believe Poland's future is in Europe, with the population you have you have a big say. The Lisbon treaty is bad for smaller nations cos it concentrates power in fewer hands.

I'm glad that you confirmed my logically consistent assumption that in ethnic districts racism is inevitable.

I still refute this statement I believe it’s for you to "prove".**

Non-Protectionisn is a big sell good luck, people wont swallow it (quoting you) "Perhaps I'm a bit cynical but at least more realistic"

**
Edit: Do you mean racism between locals and migrants? If so I thought you meant something else. Different people living together always have problems this is a logical view.
lesser  4 | 1311  
21 Oct 2009 /  #305
And you are still living in the 1940s. The roles of the left and right have changed dramitically since then.

If you take EU parliament as an example, you should notice that nearly all MEPs hold very similar views. There is hardly any left or right. If supposed left, supposed right and supposed liberals jointly support project of European Constitution and refuse to debate with anybody who would be against, then I ask how this is possible?? Theoretically they should argue about shape of this document, I did not witness anything like that. All those people support socialist superstate because this is profitable for their personal interest. They are opportunists.

There are some small fractions with right or left learnings, to mention Scandinavian Greens or UKIP. The rest of company try to marginalize such forces. They control mayor media outlets, using state issued concessions for example.

I will deal with the rest during the week.

I hope that you will do it without looking like big business's lapdog or apologist for political establishment. Difficult task... :)

Because I believe Poland's future is in Europe, with the population you have you have a big say. The Lisbon treaty is bad for smaller nations cos it concentrates power in fewer hands.

Poland is and remain part of Europe, this is quite obvious. I simply refuse to accept the EU as a synonym of Europe. This is great usurpation of Brussels bureaucracy. While Poland's voting force will be weakened if president Klaus sign this treaty. I would not mind if this would bring positive consequences, however this will bring only more socialism, more central planning and more anti-conservative philosophy.

Non-Protectionisn is a big sell good luck, people wont swallow it (quoting you) "Perhaps I'm a bit cynical but at least more realistic"

I never claimed that I believe that people will bring economic liberals to power. This is practically impossible. I share Aristotelian approach to democracy, I would be glad if this system would be replaced by more liberal monarchy. Unfortunately this would be like win in a lottery, in vast majority of cases democracy would be replaced by socialist dictatorship. Thus one must be cautious before advocating support for different kind of undemocratic forces. I consider myself to be political realist.

While I think that businessman should predict situation of the market if he wish to see big profits. Nobody force anybody to run any business, you can work in somebody else company. If you want bigger cash then take the risk, show some talent. This fair deal.

We discuss about immigration policy from Africa in particular. We hear so often how western world is willing to help Africa. This is all great scam where only western bureaucrats and African caciques profit. Instead to treat Africans like human trash and send them millions of condoms (to satisfy western 'condom business' and corrupt politicians) we could start to trade with them. This is the only way how the west could be really helpful to African people, everything else is hypocrisy.

Edit: Do you mean racism between locals and migrants?

Yes, this is stupid but natural that many people in Black district of the US will hate whites rather than Chinese.
Barney  17 | 1628  
21 Oct 2009 /  #306
Migration is largly a product of failed economic policies determined by the technology available at the time in question.

The problem I have with economic liberalism is that it leads to monopolies reducing choice and promoting disasters such as famine. I believe that certain checks and balances are necessary and a degree of socialised planning and indeed ownership is required. After all if it’s good enough for armed forces and the police its good enough for basic human needs such as water services, health etc.

I agree with a lot of what you say but I dont agree with the mechanics.
ShelleyS  14 | 2883  
22 Oct 2009 /  #307
Migration is largly a product of failed economic policies determined by the technology available at the time in question.

Please explain why India's main export their male population then? Oh apart from the ones from villages they can marry off that are female! India has (so we are told) the worlds best technology!

Im waiting!

My problem is out sourcing to 3rd word countres and causing stress to families in this country when they sell on their private medical records....these people are savages and dont deserve western business! They have your lives to sell...Lloyds outsource all of their data, this includes all of the companies within their group! They know your debt and can sell it on! Halifax are the large mortgage group in the UK!
Barney  17 | 1628  
22 Oct 2009 /  #308
Please explain why India's main export their male population then?

The answer is in that that you quoted.

these people are savages

You are so consistent, you never disappoint.

My problem is out sourcing to 3rd word countres

That is not your only problem.
Talk to your government if you have a problem with the economic policies that provide you with the lifestyle you have.

Im waiting!

I'm not
Lodz_The_Boat  32 | 1522  
22 Oct 2009 /  #309
UK!

Shelley Shelley Shelley!

Will it ever work? It wont trust me!

And dont be so happy about any new ideotic immigration policy which tries to plan how to stop the first recognised human right (to migrate and immigrate) of the world!

This world belongs to all of us equally. We are here for a time being, and we will leave. The world has been give to us by God to live one, for a certain period of time...a short period. Its given in whole, for all His creations. Your problems are nuisences for God and His angels...

God will throw those bourdaries in thin air... and people will unite. Dont you see how the world is getting smaller...THESE ARE SIGNS.... THERE IS TO BE ONE RACE...THE HUMAN RACE.

Its like a GUI (Graphic User Interface) of an Operating System. Many people might've liked Windows 95 GUI, and didnt feel much comfortable with Win98 at first. Later slowly they got used to it and loved it....same happened with XP, and this trend continues everywhere.

What I am trying to say is....ONE HUMAN RACE might seen a boring or useless idea to us now. Even threatening....but when its accomplished...it will be the most beautiful and PEACEFUL thing to have happened.

And then our decendants will pick up the history-books and read about these bogus debates. They will be hapy about themselves then, dont you have any doubts abut that. BUT IMAGINE WHAT WILL THEY THINK ABOUT THOSE ANCESTORS WHO NEVER WANTED THEM (OUR DECENDANTS) THERE.... They will pity them...
Mr Grunwald  33 | 2131  
23 Oct 2009 /  #310
God will throw those bourdaries in thin air... and people will unite. Dont you see how the world is getting smaller...THESE ARE SIGNS.... THERE IS TO BE ONE RACE...THE HUMAN RACE.

You just sounded like an Sørlending OMG

I generally agree upon mass immigration to Poland. If they want to enter that place let them try, they will leave it eventually but the huge problem is that many of them may return :S

I am a patriot so I see no reason why Poles can orange, green, brown, black, yellow or even snow white! (albinoes etc)

It's not the SKIn that counts it's the culture! The soul!
When I look at an man with dark skin I think Africa slavery, misery with dictators etc....
I don't think sub-human or dispeceable or something like that...

I look at FACTS!
and if some says why you think slavery etc. well it was something like that and I don't like it.
SeanBM  34 | 5781  
23 Oct 2009 /  #311
I have travelled and worked in many different countries and I think it is a joke that I can go pretty much wherever I like but that the people in those countries can not, just as easily, go to the place I am from.

There is a huge imbalance in the world and I have read some of the posts on this thread and it makes me think that youz want to live in North Korea, not let anyone in or out, have this insulated and "safe" life.

Well that's not going to work either, we have to allow some freedoms of movement.
A lot of the moaning comes from the credit crunch, world crises and now that foreigners are no longer needed for the jobs throw them out, again a crappy argument.

You can't invite people to work for you and after a few years, when things go wrong throw them out, for many reasons but especially because they had nothing to do with creating these problems, they were invited.

Asylum seekers are not on holiday. Sure some smart arse is now going to talk about the percent that abuse the system but all systems are abused, there is no perfect system.

I am from Ireland and in our history it is typical to travel looking for work. Some places needed us and other places treated us as uneducated diseased rodents.

Rant over.
Barney  17 | 1628  
23 Oct 2009 /  #312
Rant over

A good rant
Seanus  15 | 19666  
23 Oct 2009 /  #313
I agree, Seanny. As long as there is relative equality, there should be no complaints. The old 'level playing field' ploy. Many Poles say that they are firmly against immigration in general. That's hardly a fair position, considering the 1.5 million or so that went to the UK and illegally to America.
Lodz_The_Boat  32 | 1522  
24 Oct 2009 /  #314
Many Poles say that they are firmly against immigration in general. That's hardly a fair position, considering the 1.5 million or so that went to the UK and illegally to America.

I really am surprised by your comment that the 'many poles' As far as I know, we are either NEUTRAL on this issue, or in favour of immigration. Ofcourse there are a few who just want a world of calamities, and are immersed in intolerance and sadistic views.... but they are not the majority (maybe they shout alot....but thats what you expect from BAGS OF PAIN).

:)
Barney  17 | 1628  
24 Oct 2009 /  #315
I will deal with the rest during the week

Tick,Tick,Tick.....................
lesser  4 | 1311  
24 Oct 2009 /  #316
The problem I have with economic liberalism is that it leads to monopolies reducing choice

Monopoly can exist only when there is state protection. Otherwise inflexible big corporation is unable to dominate the market. When a company grow, it reach boundary when an owner is unable to control everything. He need to employ managers whom are not so committed and their loyalty is doubtful. Such company is more and more ineffective and smaller competition may successfully undermine position of leader. This is natural process and only state interference may lead to creation of monopoly. Let all these communist states serve as example. In today's socialist Europe with deal with cartels, where some big players in agreement with each other are privileged over the rest. This is middle way and this is still a pathology.

I have travelled and worked in many different countries and I think it is a joke that I can go pretty much wherever I like but that the people in those countries can not, just as easily, go to the place I am from.

Do you support open borders policy?

Many Poles say that they are firmly against immigration in general. That's hardly a fair position, considering the 1.5 million or so that went to the UK and illegally to America.

Don't put everybody to one kettle. I oppose immigration from civilizationally alien areas. I'm all for movement from Eastern Europe. Why we always need to argue about Africans or Asians and tehir supposed rights to come here? In the same time right behind eastern border of Europe Belarusians, Ukrainians or Russians are almost banned. Apparently knights of PC consider those people to be too closely related to us to be allowed to live in their utopian multi-civilizational society. I ask why those people are axed?

One again the EU play a negative role here. This is because their policy movement on our eastern border reduced dramatically. Suddenly our partners were told to pay for some expensive visas if they wish to continue to travel or run a business in Poland and other new member states. Of course this backfired at Polish citizens who traded with them as well.

Tick,Tick,Tick.....................

I'm sure that as a true man he need a time to acknowledge all facts and then he will admit myself to be right.
SeanBM  34 | 5781  
24 Oct 2009 /  #317
Do you support open borders policy?

There is a one way open boarder policy i.e. I can go pretty much anywhere in the world and get a job there but not visa versa.

So perhaps you would like to rephrase your question.
Barney  17 | 1628  
24 Oct 2009 /  #318
Lesser

I disagree with your analysis, you assume that big corporations are inflexible. You have built a floating ad hoc clause into your argument. I.e. there is a natural size to which any organisation can grow unless sustained by outside factors. I simply don't believe this. With good management any entity can be dynamic enough to dominate and I believe we have seen this throughout history.

Re-multiculturalism

There was a thing Bonnie Greer said on the TV (related to the other thread the other night, once heard it seems obvious.
polishforums.com/polonia-uk-ireland-31/bbc-defend-decision-invite-bnp-appear-tonights-question-time-39548
She correctly said that The Roman Empire was multicultural. It was quite successful.
RevokeLisbon  
24 Oct 2009 /  #319
She correctly said that The Roman Empire was multicultural. It was quite successful.

It was multi-ethnic, not multi-cultural. Big difference.
jonni  16 | 2475  
24 Oct 2009 /  #320
It was multi-ethnic, not multi-cultural

What makes you say that?
RevokeLisbon  
24 Oct 2009 /  #321
People of different ethnic backgrounds were citizens of Rome, but there was only one prevalent culture. Roman culture.

A multi-ethnic society is a lot different than a multi-cultural society.
Wroclaw Boy  
24 Oct 2009 /  #322
It was multi-ethnic, not multi-cultural. Big difference.

hey hey hey its the fake!! the invest in Silver specialist and Spanish Bar onwner.

Wassup dude and i thought you were avoiding me.
Barney  17 | 1628  
24 Oct 2009 /  #323
MOTD is starting I'll get back to you
What about lesser's points?
jonni  16 | 2475  
24 Oct 2009 /  #324
there was only one prevalent culture. Roman culture.

Could you cite a reliable reference for that?
RevokeLisbon  
24 Oct 2009 /  #325
There is a one way open boarder policy i.e. I can go pretty much anywhere in the world and get a job there but not visa versa.
So perhaps you would like to rephrase your question.

You need a work permit or travel visa to travel outside the EU. There are over 200 different nationalities resident in your country, of course they can come here.
Wroclaw Boy  
24 Oct 2009 /  #326
RevokeLisbon
Hey Revokenice whats with the new screen name? are you sharking for some foreign puszy or what?
RevokeLisbon  
24 Oct 2009 /  #327
No.
lesser  4 | 1311  
25 Oct 2009 /  #328
There is a one way open boarder policy i.e. I can go pretty much anywhere in the world and get a job there but not visa versa.
So perhaps you would like to rephrase your question.

Yes but we discuss about immigration and not emigration. Do you as a citizen of Ireland (as I believe) would open Irish borders to immigrants from all over the world?

I disagree with your analysis, you assume that big corporations are inflexible. You have built a floating ad hoc clause into your argument. I.e. there is a natural size to which any organisation can grow unless sustained by outside factors. I simply don’t believe this.

Similar relation can be observed in political bodies/institutions. Sir Cyril Parkinson wrote series of satires where he provided couple of examples from the UK.

With good management any entity can be dynamic enough to dominate and I believe we have seen this throughout history.

To find one good manager and convince him to be loyal is a success. Big corporations employ plenty of managers. This is impossible to control all those people who mostly care about their particular interest. Even the best manager wont be equally committed as owner himself. Milton Friedman wrote that there are four ways to spend money.

1. You spend your own money on yourself (Owner)
2. You spend your own money on someone else (Owner)
3. You spend someone else's money on yourself (Manager)
4. You spend someone else's money on someone else (Manager)

You can guess who is more careful and less spendthrift...

Re-multiculturalism

There was a thing Bonnie Greer said on the TV (related to the other thread) the other night, once heard it seems obvious. She correctly said that The Roman Empire was multicultural. It was quite successful.

To be clear, multiculturalism and multi-civilizationism are two different things. One civilization might consist from many cultures. This is quite easy to assimilate in culturally related country because common foundations exist.

Roman Empire is part of European heritage. Romans did conquer by force and often enforce their values on occupied cultures (Bratwurst Boy complain to this day! :). Anyway, Roman citizens did not live in multi-civilizational kettle. They were spread all over the empire.
SeanBM  34 | 5781  
25 Oct 2009 /  #329
You need a work permit

Yes and for most countries it is just a matter of the bureaucratic process and I can work there.
But people from that country can't.

travel visa to travel outside the EU.

Again no problem, I can get travel visa for most countries.
I have never been denied yet.

There are over 200 different nationalities resident in your country, of course they can come here.

Prove it.
So you are saying that 200 nations can live in Ireland easier than I can live in their country?
Talking rubbish again.

The Number of Countries in the World
By Most Accounts, There Are 195 Countries in the World
geography.about.com/cs/countries/a/numbercountries.htm

Yes but we discuss about immigration and not emigration. Do you as a citizen of Ireland (as I believe) would open Irish borders to immigrants from all over the world?

But I am in Poland.
So we are talking about immigration and emigration, it just depends on which side of the fence you are on.
I do not believe it is right that I, because of my birthplace, can go anywhere yet others can't.
lesser  4 | 1311  
25 Oct 2009 /  #330
I do not believe it is right that I, because of my birthplace, can go anywhere yet others can't.

Would your feelings have any consequences in your actions if you would have enough influence to change status quo?

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