Poland marching for life and family

Kill yourself, really. In most countries on earth you are punished for double homicide if you murder a pregnant woman. Why is that...Exactly.

But its alive, nobody have the right to dispose it just because its convenient.

That isn't true.


So is your toe - it does not make it a person.


An overwhelming number of doctors disagree.

I don't think that is true, I think you just made it up because it sounds good.

It's up to you to look it up.

If you pro-abortion goys are so supportive of abortion, then why don't you go back in time to the time your mothers were worried due to the fact that they weren't prepared to be mothers and make them abort you?

Interestingly enough, it's mostly white women who are bombarded with this kind of propaganda. The Jews sure know how to influence you.

Everyone can make a mistake, the real test of intelligence and decency is to admit that you have made a mistake.


I don't need anyone opinion, I base mu view on facts.


Sometimes we all need to make a hard choice but the hardness of a choice is not an indication if it is the right one.


I don't think that sexism has anything to do with the issue.


If it is not a "good" thing why would you condone it in the first place?

Yet the religious anti-abortionists and anti-contraception people refuse to admit that they made a mistake by basing their opinion on medical matters on the writings of St Augustine.

it's got everything to do with it.
It is easy for men to absolve any kind of responsibility for children, and equally easy for them to be on their soap box about abortion.

Something that is not 'good' might still be necessary. Not a decision to be taken lightly is what I meant.

It isn't. Men have a stronger set of morals than women.

no it is isn't, if you are making ridiculous claims, at least you could make sure they are based in fact.

as for men having stronger morals - is that why they dump off their kids so easily?

A person or a body can live without a toe, you're talking about terminating life.


There was a time when overwhelming majority of doctors agree that people with low IQ or some genetically inherited disorders need to be sterilized.
Anyway the last argument is fallacious if true - you confuse justification of that opinion and its acceptance by a certain group of people (allegedly doctors in this case).


Lets not talk about religious person nor about writings of St. Augustine. Let focus on the subject debated. I didn't bring region or religious beliefs into this argument and there is no reason for you (an atheist) to do so.

It isn't a life. It is a cluster of cells with no brain or other neural network.


There was never such a time.

Are you claiming that a cluster of cells is dead? Some sort of zombies? Sure thing its a life.


California, Germany.....not that it matters as I have pointed out that - "you confuse justification of an opinion and its acceptance by a certain group of people (allegedly doctors in this case)."


I'm all ears.


You are confusing issues here. There is no correlation between men that are irresponsible and don't care about their children and those who are against abortion. I would think - not treating men as somehow a mindless dick wearing mass of blobs - that those two kinds of men are mutually exclusive. It would stand to reason that those men that don't give fig about their children don't care about abortion either.

Also the fact that its is easer for a man to be absolved from any responsibility for children than women doesn't suggest directly or indirectly that abortion is justified. That line of reasoning would lead us to justification of a murder if that would be beneficial to a murderer.

It certainly isn't a person.


So in fact you were wrong. That has never been a majority opinion.

you would think so wouldnt you?

" its is easer for a man to be absolved from any responsibility for children than women doesn't suggest directly or indirectly that abortion is justified. "

that was not what i was saying at all. Not at all. Isn't that some kind of strawman argument?
I was just saying that actually I don't even think men deserve an opinion on this, or rather, can have an opinion but should keep quiet.

It is not their body and mind that is going to get mashed up is it?

You can always find some exceptions.,


Come on admit its a life.


I don't know, I have no researched polls among doctors on the issue at the time. I might be wrong or right about this but its still be immaterial to the issue debated and to the argument I'm making here.

Instead of picking on straws lets go back to the main issue and to my argument that refuted your claim about doctors.

It isn't. No more a life than a tag of skin.

Roz as much as I'm flattered that you think otherwise I cannot read your mind. Please say what you want to say. Don't expect me to guess what you meant..


It is some kind of convoluted sexism that escape logic and reason but I let it be as it going to be remain a fantasy anyhow. You could start it as a separate thread though. Lets us focus on the issue debated. Do you have anything to say on the subject other then tell men that they should shut up and don't talk about it?


Well, you're wrong but fair enough. So let agree to disagree.

yes I do. It's a woman's right to choose. Men can talk about it as much as they like, and hold what opinions they care to, but eventually its a woman's body and a woman's right to choose. Not that the choice should be taken lightly.

As for my sentence which you didnt understand, I meant 'that was a strawman argument'.#
it is so typical Iron, that when a man disagrees with a woman, esp on an internet forum, that he then has to start bumbling about 'logic and reason'. I am perfectly logical and reasonable, thanks.

If its a life than there is no place for a woman or a man to choose. They had their time when they could make different choices but at the point is too late. It is only a question of facing up to the consequences of choices they have made.

Surely the self-serving abortion-mill operators will try to tell you its like extracting a bum tooth.

If it's a life that it can feel and live on it's own with medical help... Oh wait, it can't. The moment the medicine can take the foetus out of a women and it survives I will agree it's life.

What I don't like in the pro life movement is that they stop other ppl from having their choice. I don't go around telling ppl to abort, I don't stop them having their kids but they try to tell others what to do.

It's like Dr chazan who made a women give birth to a baby without half the skull and brain and few other birth defects. The baby died after few days. That's just cruelty.

or like that Indian woman in Ireland who was actually miscarrying and the doctors refused to treat her and then she died. Well done doctors!

Not if you agree that we're talking about a life that woman carry in her womb. You can of curse be unreasonable and claim contrary as jon does (which is obviously a bull) and in that case we would agree to disagree.

If however you'll agree with me that it is a life than the right of ownership doesn't venture there. There is noting else that gives the right to women to terminate it.


No, you're not. People are not lone islands and live in a society, men and women differ but came together to form a family where they have an equal say on all matters that pertain to them.

Exceptions are just exceptions and we are not talking about them.
If we would apply your logic (pseudo-logic) we would need to dissolve all responsibility of men for their offspring's welfare, meaning they wouldn't have to pay for them or contribute to a medical care for women or their (benefits if there are such in a country).

Women would be soon banned from talking about men issues, have a say in a war ( as chiefly men are fighting), that would transform society into some kind of strange sectarian camp with gender as a dividing line.

I don't see such a society surviving for long without turning into a large totalitarian utopia with the state as a sole ruler, not to mention that it all goes against human nature to care and nurture for their offspring and that goes both for men and women.


So if somebody after accident is strapped to life support apparatus and couldn't survive without it - should we just automatically turn off the switch? Should be a baby (who cannot survive on its own without adult care) be killed at will and whim? Should all mentality patients unable to survive without care on their own terminated?

I'm asking you valid questions here.


Nobody is forcing you to became pregnant. You can exr4cise as much freedom to chose as you want.


I'm not going around or telling you to became pregnant! What are you on about?


No, demanding the right to make an arbitrary decision about life and dead based on the right of ownership that is a cruelty.

Actually I mentioned that medical help is ok as long as it doesn't have to mean women carrying the baby.
And if it comes to that in my case I would want someone to turn off the switch and there was enough ppl fighting for that right for themselves.


Raped women don't choose that either yet the pro life ppl (at least in Poland) tried to force a raped 13 year old to keep the baby just recently.


The parents wanted the baby but at that point the parents knew that the baby is basically dead before the women gave birth. If that's not cruelty I don't know what is.

The thing is pro life ppl put the foetus life above the women's. Sometimes tragic stories are justified by 'we were fighting for life' but just one. The already born life doesn't bother them in the slightest (e.g. Roz's story)

You haven't answered my questions. Would you like to try again?


We are not talking about rape. We are talking about consensual sex which consist of 99,9% of the cases that ends with pregnancy. Do you want to sidestep the issue and talk about exceptions?


Nah, that baby lived for a few days according to you. In a sense we are all basically dead as we all going to die - should we all commit suicide just to spare ourselves and others the bother?


Evidently you don't know what cruelty is. Sadness, loss, mortality those are natural feelings and occurrences in human life.


That is a lie.

The Nazi regime said it was OK rob, maim or kill Jews. Someone opposed might be told: "You don't have to hurt Jews if you don't want to, but don't stop other people having a choice." Would you want to live in a country where the pro-choice option referred to the murder of Jews?

The pro-life movment espouses the sanctity of life from conception to natural death. They do not want to live in a society where pre-natal baby butchery is condoned. It's a simple as that.

Let's talk about Poles/Poland

I could be wrong here, but if the new law on abortion the pro lifers want passed, does go ahead, isn't it banning abortion on ALL grounds? If so, and that law does get passed, then the life of the foetus WILL be put above that of the mother, as currently abortion is granted if the life of the mother is at risk.

Basically yes. The result of the proposed law will be twofold. Misery for women who can't afford to travel abroad for it, and profits for clinics elsewhere because of those who can.

Automatically? No. But do I think they should have such option? You bet.


Maybe you are not but I am. Raped women are as much part of the abortion discussion as the one that got pregnant just by accident.


The baby didn't have a chance. Can you tell me what was the point? It's not like there was the slightest possibility it will survive more than few days.


They are natural occurrences however inflicting them on ppl because of what you think is right and against the law is cruelty. The doctor had no right doing that.


Actually it's not. You know in what circumstances abortion is allowed in Poland so don't try to make it as if women in Poland abort on a whim. The pro life ppl are advocating tougher laws which in fact would mean that the foetus life would be put above the women's.

I have one question though- we had the question on whether or not the early stages of pregnancy is life or not. You ridiculed Jon for saying it's not but you didn't say why you think it is.