Gazeta Wyborcza of Poland losing readers

I was looking for a specific quote from a specific article. Quite unambiguously, I thought. Not much to ask really.

A small point of semantics:


The reason I'm asking a question is because I DON'T have a sufficiently informed point of view on this matter. So what is there to believe?

But if you insist on the primitive partisan premise that challenging a viewpoint implicitly means you are a die-hard opponent of that view and you are merely looking for a confirmation of your prejudices, fear not: Torq is, in what is actually a fair and enlightened manner, waving the cudgels on behalf of the 'other side': you can't complain of a lack of balance. In fact, he's probably as disappointed as me that the why-oh-why merchants on both sides of the fence have come up with NOTHING substantive in this whole thread.

Gazeta Wyborcza lost 5% of their readers

Illiteracy and dyslexia on the rise.

Who was the cruel bugger who invented the word dyslexia? didn't she knwo who she was dealing with?

This looks pretty dodgy - "Defending themselves against homosexuals" - well, that's a pretty intolerant attitude right there.

Your turn, Gazeta-haters.

Over 2 days of searching and you come up with THIS?

An interview with Mathias von Gersdorff, German pro-life activist, who opposes
gay organisations, which attack pope and Catholic church, organise gay parades
(equally disgusting as hetero parades, with heterosexual men swinging their dicks
would be), and demand equal rights for marriages and couples of men sodomizing
each other? Did you actually read the article? So, people who oppose shameless
promoting of homosexualism are by definition "homophobes"? So, I guess that,
according to you, people who oppose the Israeli policy towards Palestinians must
all be "anti-semites", right?

Anyway - I'm glad that you mentioned so-called "homophobia", but where's all the
nazism, fascism and xenophobia? Where are all those Streichers writing for "ND"?
When you continue your search, please try also to find something that would justify
the constant storm of insults and epithets, that "sophisticated" and "educated"
Gazeta Wyborcza readers hurl towards simple people.

The display of rudeness and contempt shown in this thread by "GW" bandwagon tells us
much more about the newspaper and its readers than a thousand of articles from it.


Well, as I said before, I'm not a "Gazeta-hater". However, seeing that the percentage
of presumptuous, uppity, self-important pric*ks among its readers, is excessively high,
I fail to feel any sympathy for it.

If any of the oh-so-sophisticated and oh-so-superior twats continues to insult my people,
only because they read "Nasz Dziennik", are Roman Catholics and very often are poor and
can't afford proper dental services (as one of the arseholes in this thread was nice enough
to notice), he can be sure that he will hear what I think of him and his ilk.

Those poor folks, with their bad teeth, digestion problems, their small-town and village
churches in which they pray to their Saviour and Saint Mary Queen of Poland - they
are MY PEOPLE and if some persnickety pri*ck thinks that he can insult them
and bask in false sense of superiority over them - he's going to hear from me.

I only spent ten seconds - typed in "nasz dziennik homofobia" into Google and it was the first link. I mean, if I find that within 10 seconds, what am I going to find spending two days?

Come on Torq, the current obsession with Gross. Do you think they'd really pay as much attention to him if he wasn't Jewish? Do you think they'd pay anywhere near as much attention to a British Pole who wrote the same sort of thing? Indeed - would they even say a thing if Gross was actually a Polish Catholic who supported them financially?

But it seems to me that the whole GW-ND argument comes from one thing - the split between intellectuals and workers.

Incidentally Torq, doesn't it disgust you that Nasz Dziennik and the ilk exploit their uneducated readers, who will believe everything they read just because it appears to be approved by the Church? I feel sorry for these people.

The term "moherowe berety" has been conceived by Jan Maria Rokita, one of the original three co-founders of the Civic Platform (PO). Semantically, it has nothing contemptuous in it as both words 'mohair' and 'beret' are neutral in Polish. Its, in a sense, "political" counterpart, the term 'wykształciuchy', only slightly less popular, has been invented by the once prominent member of the Law and Justice (PiS), often referred to as the "third twin" of the Kaczyński brothers, Ludwik Dorn. This term has semantically been somewhat despicable for 'educated members of society' due to its suffix -iuch/-ioch [in words like: świńtuch, tłuścioch]. In a way, the interim score is one to one in this eternal match between the "GW readers" and the "ND readers".

I don't know - try and see :)


They pay attention to him, not because he's Jewish, but because he writes about Poland
and Poles in a way that they consider unfair and biased. I'm not saying if they're right or not,
but they are entitled to their opinion.


Yes, I think they would. Those people, actually, believe in something and can stand up for
their beliefs, even if it earns them hatred and contempt from so-called intellectuals.


LOL

See what I mean when I talk about persnickety twats? :D

I'd rather say that it comes from the split between politically correct pseudo-intellectuals
and real intellectuals, able to stand up for their beliefs even if it earns them contempt from
the masters of this world (and, in addition, the entire PC-brigade.)
Or maybe it's a split between liberal cosmopolitans and conservative patriots?


Do you even realise that you have just insulted me as "Nasz Dziennik" reader, or does it just
come naturally to you, without thinking? :)


No, you don't.

You hold these people in contempt. That's a huge difference.

Hey, some workers can be intellectuals too you know!

;P

Damn it, even bad teeth and digestive problems of some may become a hot political issue in Poland these days ...

Not so much political issues as pretexts for some "cultured" and "educated" people on this
forum to ridicule the poor in Poland. Read the thread from the beginning, Ziemowit, and see it
for yourself. Truly disgusting, but I guess "intellectuals" here think it's OK to sneer at simple
people.

And what if he was Catholic and Polish, who was a supporter of theirs? They wouldn't say a thing. You can see from all the recent articles about Gross that they repeatedly bring up him being Jewish - even though it really has nothing to do with it. You hear the same nonsense time and time again about Michnik - "Jew" this, "Jew" that.


So why didn't they stand up against those who were attacking the authority of the RCC in Poland over the cross crisis? Why didn't Nasz Dziennik publicly denounce them? If the newspaper is so about defending Catholicism, why didn't it defend the Church and especially the cross from such nonsense?


Real intellectuals? Come on Torq, look at these people. They'll believe whatever you tell them - the Smolensk articles on Nasz Dziennik have been about as factually incorrect as it gets. The fact that they published on Friday an article about "missiles that take down planes" - come on, it's just manipulation, nothing more.

For what it's worth, the average Gazeta Wyborcza/Rzeczpospolita reader that I've met tends to take the media with a large pinch of salt. The average Nasz Dziennik reader tends to believe that everything printed there is true. Kinda shows, doesn't it?


But there are plenty of patriots who read Gazeta Wyborcza. Fair enough, conservatives tend to read Rzeczpospolita - but both of them are just as patriotic as your average Nasz Dziennik reader. This is part of the ND-reader agenda though - anyone who doesn't agree with them is somehow "unpatriotic".


Of course I do - they're uneducated (through choice, don't forget), they have incredibly backwards social views, they expect me to subsidise them, and more. Sorry, but why would I show any respect to them when they're only interested in my wallet?

But then again, I've never seen a Gazeta Wyborcza supporter scream in the face of a 12 year old boy.

Anyway, while Nasz Dziennik continues to completely obsess over Gross, Gazeta Wyborcza produces an escapee from Treblinka -

Peasants came and kicked , looking for treasures , valuables after the Jews - says Samuel Willenberg , a refugee camp in Treblinka , commenting on the discussion to the latest book by Jan Tomasz Gross " Golden Harvest " . Along with his wife, Ada , however, argue that "the weapons of Poles against unfounded accusations of anti-Semitism ."

The latest book by Jan T. Gross - " Golden Harvest " - is slated to appear in March published by Sign. Included in the thesis and cited stories , including the mass looting by the local population areas Treblinka , Poland has aroused heated debate.

If anything, Gross is a master of publicity. Not only has he got the usual Jew-obsessives ranting about him, but he's also managed to get most of the media obsessing about him too.

You see, if some of the Church's authorities are wrong, it is a duty of a Catholic to oppose
them. The history of RCC tells of many such cases where Church's authorities were corrupted
and strayed from the right path, but we don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about
Christianity (well, I don't, anyway.)




OK, I see that you insist on insulting me and many of my friends, who read "Nasz Dziennik"
and are no less educated and no less intelligent than you are (to put it very mildly :))

That is quite sad, that a self-proclaimed intellectual is not able to conduct a civil
conversation, without constantly insulting his interlocutor.


What are you even talking about? You are a guest in our country, who makes a good living
by teaching people English (if my memory is not failing me.) You need Poland and Poles
waaaaay more, than we need you. I would even go as far as saying that you may leave
Poland forever and we would be no less well-off :)


You could see, though, GW supporters spitting at people praying under the cross and
extinguishing cigarettes on the necks of praying older ladies (while police didn't see it fit
to react.) Classy :)



Q.E.D.

Maybe some proof of this?


Considering that Nasz Dziennik is a downmarket tabloid, almost any generalisation about its readership can seem insulting.


This from you!

Look, seeing as you are the one who wrote...



... I see absolutely no reason at all to conduct a civil conversation with you.


Sure. Two eyewitnesses. If you want to talk to them, come to Słupsk and I'll arrange
a meeting. Though, I'm afraid, the simplicity and honesty of those people (not to mention
their rather average income) would be too much for such an "intellectual" as you to bear.

What did you expect anyway? That people praying under the cross were carrying
camcorders with them?

Nothing in this thread suggests you know how to, and nothing I've written here half matches some of your bitter and paranoid comments. Then again, you're just trying to wriggle out of that nonsense about liberals torturing old ladies in a crowded (and cctv'd) street in the middle of the capital in broad daylight.


As I thought, a bare-faced lie. Though anyone who would travel all the way from Slupsk to watch that dreadful spectacle outside the Presidential Palace and then tell ridiculous stories about urban intellectuals


is automatically suspect. Unless they just happened to be passing by.


Probably because it never happened.


Yes. There were plenty of cameras there and a more or less permanent film crew. Oddly enough the only offensive behaviour there that I saw with my own eyes were the god-botherers screaming insults at bemused tourists and passers-by.

And if it had happened and people did nothing, what does that say about your fellow Poles who were present?

Interesting how you've twisted a thread on the sales figures of Poland's biggest mainstream quality newspaper, Gazeta Wyborcza to rants about an obscure and politically extreme tabloid, aimed squarely at the elderly, that you are an apologist for.

Mind you, the overwhelming majority of people in Poland don't bother reading any newspaper at all. Not on the whole a good sign, but at least they aren't all beating a path to the news kiosks to buy some conservative rag.

Leave that to other readers of this thread to judge, as you, obviously cannot be objective
about it.


There were people from the entire Poland, not only from Słupsk. There were Górals, Kaszubs,
people from practically every corner of Poland.


Where did I say anything about urban intellectuals? I mentioned GW readers - people whom
I could call, if I wanted to play your insults game, quarter-intellectuals (we have this lovely
word for them in Polish - "ćwierćinteligenci", I'm not sure if there is an English equivalent
of it.)


That's a lie and you know it. Even the TV had shown videos in which we could see
anti-Catholic mob, hurling insults towards praying people, screaming "ave Satan"
and carrying banners, saying "Down with crosses, mohairs to the stake" etc.
...

Here are some of your urban intellectuals mocking an eldelry lady:




Erm... no, I didn't. Surely it is within the scope of even your limited abilities
to go back to the first page of this thread and see that it was Sobieski (the
same twat, who insulted my dead grandfather, for no apparent reason) and
you, yes YOU, who started writing about "Nasz Dziennik", before I even
mentioned it. As a matter of a fact, my posts were only a reply to your
insults towards "ND" and its readers.

Come on - go back to the first page and see who has "twisted the thread." :)

The vast majority of the insults were from the religious fanatics abusing passers by. Any counter demonstration was a genuine public response to a group of troublemakers who were blocking the streets in front of the Presidential Palace in the presence of international TV crews and making Piesoland Europe's laughing stock.

But as you say - let people be the judge of that.


All I see is a fairly peaceful demonstration in the first film, and some spotty teenagers in the second.
Since you've obviously learned how to use secular techbology like youtube, why not find a film to support your bare-faced lie. I'll remind you what it was. That "GW supporters" (whatever that means) were torturing old ladies with burning cigarettes in a crowded (and camera'd) street, in the part of the city centre with the most thorough surveillance in the country.

I'd remind you, by the way, that the people you call "anti-catholic protesters" were in fact on the side of the law and the elected government, whereas the god-botherers were trying to force their opinions on the entire country, who breathed a collective sigh of relief when they eventually stopped illegal assemblies and went home. Thank goodness the cold weather set in.


Stop using obscenities, especially in a language that isn't yours and which you don't feel the nuances of - basically keep the toilet-talk to yourself, and frankly I have no idea what your relatives, quick or dead, have to do with Gazeta's sales figures. Nor do I care, since on past form you'll probably just come out with another pack of unpleasant and tasteless lies (see above, the granny-torture bit).

Alll I am really interested in is that you provide some proof (there would be plenty, were it even half true) that "GW supporters", were torturing.... (see above)!

My offer of arranging a meeting for you with the eyewitnesses who saw that, still stands.
I have no reason to disbelieve those people. And I call those mob members GW readers,
in the same way as you used all the epithets for ND readers. Probably, as you said, they
don't read any newspaper at all, but if you are ready to hurl insults at people, you must
be ready to take them too.


Look who's talking. How about you keep your insults to yourself, before you start
lecturing others on the rules of conducting a conversation?


Why don't you ask your buddy, Sobieski? He's the one who, for some reason, mentioned
my dead grandfather in a thread about Gazeta Wyborcza losing readers :)

It is quite amusing, how you accused me of "twisting the thread" and when I asked you
to see who has, in fact, twisted it, you conveniently overlooked the question.

However, it is there for everyone to see: the thread was originally about Gazeta Wyborcza's
sales figures and you (for some reason, known only to you) started writing about "Nasz
Dziennik" and insulting its readers :)

Anyone else however would.
Again, please supply some proof. Since you haven't, we can only assume your lying, and if the so-called eye-witnesses exist, they're highly disreputable as witnesses - did do anything about the old ladies that the evil liberals were openly torturing in the street in fron of a crowd of hostile witnesses? Did anyone else? Probably thousands of cameras - pretty well one on every phone - did anyone photograph this flagrant assault on human dignity? The protest you referred to was at the most high-profile spot in the entire country, right outside the Presidential Palace - CCTV everywhere. Did any of those record it? No? Because it never happened - Torq, you are posting bare-faced lies. I suspect you made it up, however if these "friends" exist, they are liars.

You're still trying to wriggle your way out of the situation. Stop being a coward and provide some actual truth for your claim, which after all, is a pretty serious one, or admit your lies.

Otherwise we'll have to assume (and many people here do anyway) that any other "facts" you post here are bullsh1t too.

As I said before, there were eyewitness, and if you insist on undermining their credibility
there's nothing I can do about it really. However, the portal Gazeta.pl, on 21st October 2010,
posted an interview with Jarosław Kaczyński in which he mentioned the disgusting deeds
of anti-Catholic mob: extinguishing the cigarettes on the necks of praying women, urinating
on ever burning fires under the cross and the lack of reaction from security forces.
It was also described, if my memory is not failing me, in one of "Najwyższy CZAS!" issues.

Sure, it is easy to call me a liar, or undermine the credibility of my acquaintances, but maybe
you would like to accuse Jarosław Kaczyński of publicly lying? I'm sure you can contact his
lawyer and tell him about your accusations. Let us know how it goes.

Why no cameras record it? Why the police didn't react? Why were the praying people
treated with scorn and contempt? Well, don't ask me - that's how things are in Poland
during PO's reign.


Like what, for example? May I remind you that I asked all the ND-haters to provide a single
link that would prove the Rydzyk's newspaper's (which you called Rydzykisch beobachter)
"nazism", "fascism" or "xenophobia", and apart from a single link to an interview with a German
pro-life activist posted by Delphiandomine there was NOTHING.

I repeat again - it is you who started to hurl insults at people in a perfectly decent thread
about GW falling sales figueres. That's a fact and it's here for everyone to see.

In what way ?


Disappointing...

By saying that my grandfather (of whose life, needless to say, Sobieski knows nothing about)
was a member of Blue Police (by which he meant Granatowa Policja collaborating with German
occupiers) and proud of it.
How is that relevant to the thread's subject? Well, beats me - you ask him :)

Happily - he has been exposed lying in public quite a few times. Remember he is a/ a politician, b/ a East European politician and c/ a right-wing East European politician. He wouldn't know truth if he met it with it's trousers down in a bush.

But that's a different story, deleted in case the louse tried to save his failing reputation by abusing the libel laws - a more likely explanation is that his belt buckle slipped and somebody (presumably short-sighted) was helping him fix it. Happens all the time - maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt? Who knows? Since it happened a few years ago when he was still the fat guy who'd been a child actor in the film about the twins who stole the moon and whose brother was planning to stand as mayor it may simply be a case of mistaken identity. That description could have fitted anyone back in those heady days, and I wasn't wearing my glasses (it being a popular summertime cruising area) when everyone pointed him out. But that's just hearsay, so we can't accept it as in any way true. Since the truth needs to be backed up with proof.

But JK and JKM don't post here. It is you who talked about liberals torturing old ladies in the street in the centre of Warsaw in front of a crowd of spectators. And again you try to wriggle out of it.

So come on then - provide at least a photo, not just word of mouth from an unpopular politician of questionable ethics, one thrown out of office by the Polish people before his term had even ended, and a former politician who stabbed himself and blamed it on a mystery Chinese assailant. Also thrown out of office by the Polish electorate. Not that either of them is stupid enough to claim to have actually seen anything. Who's your next source going to be? Jozef Fritzl?


Very.


There's plenty out there on the web, and most people would feel a bad taste in their mouth looking.


So the police were all hired after the election? None of the mohairs had a cameraphone? The police stood by and held back those brave Poles trying to help the poor old ladies being brutally tortured by other Poles, in front of a governmenbt building in the middle of the capital? You have a very low opinion of your own country.

Come off it - you're lying, you know your lying, everyone else knows you're lying and your attempt to wriggle out of it failed miserably. We can only assume that any other 'facts' you post are of the same dubious value.

being a member of Blue Police ( rather navy blue ) even during occupation was nothing to ashame off!


sobieski is an underdeveloped pseudo-troll posed as a PC activist, nothing to get excited about!

No, but it is possible that they may have had specific instructions from their superiors, I don't
know, but it is not entirely impossible.


Well, I can very easily imagine that at the moment of witnessing such deeds the "mohairs",
as you call them, were trying to help the abused people, instead of calmly recording it with
their cameraphones or what not.

As for the CCTV footage, who knows - probably there was some footage of it, but imagine
the outrage that it would cause, if it was published. Imagine the enormous rise of sympathy
towards Catholic and conservative circles in the entire Poland. Such footage simply couldn't
see the light of day, and it didn't.


No. I have a very low opinion of certain people in my country.



Jarosław Kaczyński is not credible for you, JKM isn't either, eyewitnesses, to whom I spoke
to, are obviously liars too, only you - Jonni, know the truth. Pathetic...


You know, it's funny how you talk about people being fascists, comparing newspapers
to nazi rags, while you are acting like the best student of Joseph Goebbels yourself,
repeating something for 100 times, to make people believe it.
However, no matter how many times you will call me a liar, it doesn't change the fact
that the accounts of witnesses and words of some politicians are quite credible (even
if you, personally, consider those people to be liars - it is only your opinion.)

Torq lying- nah;)

However, he gets easily offended.

On topic.

Gazeta Wyborcza is used as a punching bag by some and I think it is very childish since the readers , such as me are not going to give it up, since it is an awesome paper.

Torq
Your last post is one of the weakest, most blustering, most straw-clutching, most meagre attempts to keep on wriggling out of a bed of lies that I've seen in several years here. Unworthy of response except to say I no longer expect proof, because there clearly isn't any.

I'll just end with a couple of quotes, which are worth people remembering:



The truth doen't fit so hey, why not make something up.

BTW, I very rarely read Gazeta Wyborcza - from a journalistic point of view it is exceptionally high quality and acknowledged as such within the industry but I tend to read 'Polska' for the news and 'Fakt' for the crime reports.

So, Torq. I've seen one of the "mohairs" physically assault a young boy (11 or 12 years old) because she didn't agree with what he was saying - and then backed it up by screaming in his face. Of course, when people started mocking her, she backed off - but the point remains - they're no strangers to assaulting people.

Then again, I've never seen Gazeta Wyborcza readers screaming at TV screens, either.

Remind us though - who attacked the police in Warsaw?

OK, so the account of two eyewitnesses that I spoke to, even if, for the sake of argument,
their account turned out to be false, is a "bed of lies"? Interesting.

You weren't able to back up your accusations of "ND" being a nazi newspaper with
anything substantive, so you desperately held on to this one doubtful (according
to you) eyewitness account, like a broken record.

FACTS, on the other hand, remain the same and are here for everyone to see:

1. You twisted the thread about GW sales figures into a rant about Nasz Dziennik
(it is there on the first page of the thread for everyone to see.)

2. You instulted the elderly people who read ND, in a most disgraceful and uncivilized way
(mocking their intelligence, state of their health and religion.)

3. You compared ND to nazi rags from WW2 and backed it up with absolutely nothing.

4. You called ND a tabloid, when obviously it isn't. There are two tabloids in Poland: "Fakt",
and "Super Express". Even GW journalists don't consider ND to be a tabloid (probably because
they know something about journalism.)

5. In order to wiggle your way out of the false accusations and to make people forget your
unparalleled rudeness and contempt for poor, simple people, you desperately held on to one
doubtful eyewitness account, like a broken record.


If I was Jonni, I would now ask you to show me a video (surely, there were so many cameras
there, everybody had a phone etc.) of this 11 year old little boy, being assaulted, but luckily
I'm not, and I will not accuse you of lying 100 times, only because you didn't record the
incident when it happened :)

I won't do that, because I know that there were emotions involved on both sides of the
barricade and, contrary to what Jonni says, not everything was recorded by the cameras
(and some of what was recorded, will most likely never see the light of day, for obvious
reasons.)


What kind of a question is that? Of course, the police in Warsaw was attacked by elderly "mohairs".
Sturm units of Warsaw Police Department, armed to the teeth, suffered a humiliating defeat
at the hands of elderly ladies, having only...


...at their disposal. Poor, poor Warsaw police...

You wouldn't happen to have video footage of this memorable battle?

The problem is Torq is that people will often swear blind that they saw something, even if they didn't. It's quite a common thing - I can't recall the pyschological term, but it's to do with group compliance and so on. I dare say you see exactly the same behaviour with any sort of minority group.


Oh, it clearly is. It relies on sensationalism to sell newspapers - that's the mark of a tabloid. It could be best compared to the UK's Daily Mail in terms of how it presents itself - it aims to shock and upset the readers with a set agenda.

But there's nothing wrong with that as such - if the audience likes the constant Smolensk articles and obsession with Tusk/Komorowski, then fair play to them. Who are we to decide what people can and can't read, after all?


It was filmed by TVN - but I guess the fact that the boy argued back meant that it wasn't good footage.


Indeed, emotions were running far too high - that should never, ever have been allowed to go on as long as it did. The fact that -


That was the worst part. The crowd of mostly old people actually managed to prevent them from removing the cross was beyond insane - it made a mockery of the police and the entire security apparatus.