The first PiS led government in 2005 lasted just over 2 years in Poland.

Hope u get the irony when u look up my source link , anyone can cherry pick articles from the left or right wing press .

Sad that the PiSlamic State see politics as war, but entirely understandable, given that they are grounded in a system which saw dominance and suppression of political opponents as essential. The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski saw suppression of political opponents of the communist party as so necessary that he volunteered to do it himself.


Yes, he's just following the example set by what many now call TVPiS, whose 'news' program just airbrush out the parts of reality The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski would prefer not to exist.


Can anybody pick any articles to support Polly's claim that Pope John Paul II was a communist collaborator?

Did you read the article I linked to Dolno? It's neither right nor left wing. It's simply a discussion/debate representing views of credible individuals from both sides of the argument regarding Poland's politics. It's very interesting.

As a soldier who fought in the Yugoslav wars we were taught by our general that the war is an extension of politics through armed struggle & violent means. This is the best definition.

I find it also absurd that you compare Poland to the Islamic State where they decapitate people and chop their limbs off. For this anyone should incur at least a fine if not a prison sentence if true rule of law is applied and if law & order exist.

I understand what you are saying but I think it is pointless to post and debate articles written by the above, why don't we post debate what we see on the ground in Poland, every day.

For example.

Peple where I live are really happy with the governments 500 project, they have used the money to buy winter fuel and generaly improve the living standards of the child and the family.

No one has seen an increase in new bicycles or drunken mothers in the street , as some of the press have suggested would happen

Another thing the PIS are doing is scrapping the NFZ from Jan 2018 and moving to a free at source universal care system similar to the UK.

There are currently 2.5 million people in Poland who cannot see a doctor because they do not pay into the NFZ, and they have no money to pay for private care they end up in hospital as a last resort.

Many of the above people have alcohol and mental issues , many others live hand to mouth and are not signed on at the labour exchage.

They have no one to turn to when they are ill, the doctors want money off them before they will see them.

This new law being passed by PIS will help some of the most needy in Polish society, they have already scrapped prescription charges for the elderly.

I don;t expect PIS get everything right and people should also post what they see on the ground as negative .

Why bother dicussing what some jurno or politician has to say, whats important is what good or bad is being done in Poland. I guess you would have some real life observations to share , far more interesting what do you think Atch,

When yoiu startd copy-pasting huge chunks they tell you it's against PF rules. The gist it that PiS have the highest backing ever. That's the lead.

They have the actually support of pretty much the same percentage of Poles as the percentage of eligible Poles who joined the communist party back under the previous regime. More people say they support PIS now than did at the election, but there was no shortage of Poles who said they supported communism but didn't join the party. However, there certainly is a shortage of Poles who would support your claim that John Paul II was a collaborator.

I see there is still a lot of crying about PiS winning last year's democratic election. Some sour losers just don't when to stop which is good, it's always a pleasure to watch.

I Ignored the comment you made to me on the above comment by pol, but you are continuimg to makie up, lies read what pol said below #84

I am no fan of all that pol writes or thinks jews gays etc , but you are lying in your statement and as you know any statement against JP icould lead to problems for the individual when in poland, pack it in with the lying and twisting

https://polishforums.com/news/poland-first-pis-led-government-lasted-years-80324/3/#msg1579459

His exact and full statement was that:


polishforums.com/news/poland-first-pis-led-government-lasted-years-80324/3/#msg1579456

Pope John Paul II was a citizen of the PRL (both as Karol Wojtyla and Pope John Paul II). But to Polly "Every PRL citizen was a PZPR collabroator".

I'm pretty sure that Pope John Paul II would not favour the current PIS regime, he didn't look too favourably on people who oppressed Poles or broke the constitution the people of Poland chose for themselves.

A true statement that reflects the time of occupation by a hostile murdering regime (he was there at the time), my family in Poland also had to play the game and appear to be lovers of all things soviet to survive, thats the point he is making but you choose to twist it, and turn the whole thread into a bashing exercise.

What's he got left? The flakey opposition are in disarray, more and more Europeans realise PiS may be on to a good thing and support for the branless ranters is waning. He can only be pitied, His whole world is collapsing under his feet.

Lame excuse. You don't have to copy-paste. You can paraphrase. That's what I did. Don't tell me that a patriotic Pole such as yourself is too lazy to put a few simple phrases into his own words.


I think there should be a mixture of both. A well written, well researched piece of journalism is always worth reading and can be the starting point for a discussion that then includes personal experience/observations and anecdotal evidence (though Polly for one doesn't like anecdotal evidence when it contradicts his beliefs).


The problem with that Dolno is twofold. Firstly it's a classic sticking plaster over a gaping wound. I'm sure I don't need to elaborate on why. Secondly how is it going to be sustained? It's a short term solution and it can't go on indefinitely It will either be reduced or scrapped completely at some point in the future and will cause more suffering in the long run.

Now here's a personal observation. Mr Atch has a colleague, another software engineer. He's in his thirties, his wife is also working in a well paid job. They are in the top bracket of earners in Poland. They are paying a 700,000 PLN mortgage for 60 sq metres in a local authority built block from the latter half of the communist era. It's a two room flat and they have two children, a boy and a girl. So basically you have the anomaly that still exists in Polish society where a very well to do couple are sleeping on a sofa bed in the living room while their children, of different genders, are sharing a room.

To get back to the article, there's an excellent bit by Jiri Pehe, a Czech political analyst who is director of the University of New York in Prague. He sums it up perfectly when he says that:

Developments in Poland show how limited the understanding of democracy still is in most post-communist countries.

and

Even more than 25 years after the fall of communism, significant parts of those societies have not been able to internalize democratic values.

Now Dolno you're in a unique position to understand that, because you're both Polish and British. You grew up in the UK and you can surely see the truth of Pehe's statements. For me it's not a question of PIS or PO, it's a fundamental problem that there is no tradition of democracy in this part of the world. It went from nineteenth century feudalism straight into late twentieth century modernism and your country and other post-communist countries are struggling with that. It's about attitudes, attitudes that permeate all of society to varying degrees and those attitudes affect the ability of the various governments to govern well and wisely and to create a better Poland for Polish people to live in.

Only the facts. Perhaps you've heard of facts? Facts include things such as the following:
The leader of PIS was a collaborator who volunteered to prosecute the dissidents during the commie era.
More than a thousand members of the PiSlamic State wedged their snouts into the trough by being appointed to publicly funded posts to which they are not qualified. That's a thousand in a single year; the previous government managed 400 in five years. This fact will be brought up at the next elections.

The regime's economic policies are untenable. They have committed to pay bribes which the public purse could not afford even if the economy was being well managed.

The economy is not being well managed, as is reflected by the sudden lack of interest in Poland from investors, amongst other indicators.
You claimed that Pope John Paul II "was a PZPR collabroator".

Your posts are usually very to the point and interesting , but this one is wide off the mark! Poland had experience of democracy (or at least elections) before many western european countries, plus the second oldest written constitution in the world!

No, it rather isn't. Perhaps she should have called it "political culture" rather than "democracy".


These elections greatly degenerated over time. Anyway, you cannot compare them to modern elections. The election of the last king of Poland, for example, was done in a place surrounded with the Russian army if I remember well.

Elections in England of the 18th century were largely bribed. I remember seeing a painting pompuously showing a scene of bribing an election in England.

Thanks for your kind words Wincig. I particularly relish the 'to the point' as I have three warnings for being off-topic, due to my fabulous sense of humour and homely anecdotes which reguarly get in the way of my equally fabulous insights.

When I say, no tradition of democracy, perhaps I should say, no recent tradition. Poland did have a period during its history when it was flourishing and flowering and showing great promise but it began to go into decline as early as the 17th century and the Constitution you refer to was, with respect, a bit of a flash in the pan. The ideals were there, but never became established, they were stamped out by subsequent events. Poland by the nineteenth century was a bit of a mess thanks to Russia, Prussia et al. Bear in mind that serfdom wasn't abolished in Poland until the 1860s. A society where there exists the concept of fedual service to an overlord and being tied to the land, does not equate to democracy. After WWI there was no chance to establish a strong government or political system before the Nazi invasion. The time frame was just too brief. So there is no firmly established tradition to draw on. The liberal or egalitarian ideals of the past are too long gone to influence modern Polish society and the Polish way of thinking.

The post-communsit clique version of an elitist democracy of PZPR-KOR backroom dealers, led by liberal and leftist attctvists and backed by communists- turned-businessmen mas well as professional and celebrity dynasties who have enjoyed most of the frutis of transformation is not limited to this part of the world. Incidentals differ (no PZPR legacy in teh USA) but the Trump phenomenon and anti-elitist tendencies in other countries including established democracies show that something is changing. It's not only PiS and Orbán, but also Le Pen, Brexit, AfD, Austria's Freedom Party, similar movements in Holland and elsehwere are all gaining support. This is a grass-roots revolt against liberal metropolitan snobs, leftist eggheads and other elitists. Since they think they have some foreordained right to rule and enjoy the prestige, perks and privilege that entails and wrongly beleive that is demcoracy, they have tried to label their opponents as anti-demcoratic. In fact it is the elitists who are undermining demcoracy.


Facts include things such as realising that responding is a waste of breath.

I agree up to a certain point. First of all, slavery, which is akin to serfdom, continued to exist in many democratic countries well within the XIXth century (for example 1865 in the US, 1848 in France..). Second, if you go back to the roots of democracy, ie Athens, democracy did not apply to all. One had to be a male and a "citizen" (ie not a slave) which means that in practice 10-15% of the population of Athens voted.

Slavery in the US is somewhat different because it stems not from feudalism but from the idea that the white man is superior to other races. As for France, I'm not sure where you got that information from but it's not accurate. Serfdom was officially abolished much earlier than that and the last vestiges disappeared during the Napoleonic era. The Slavic nations, being much 'younger' than the western European ones, serfdom was only beginning to take hold there as it was effectively ending in western Europe. By the fifteenth century serfdom was just taking off big time in the East.

As for the Athenian roots of democracy, this is a very good point because it demonstrates how lengthy and gradual the process has been in establishing and developing the modern concept of democracy. The democratic West is a result of centuries of revolution, reforms, changes in attitude and thinking amongst the middle classes and working classes, it has been hard fought for over hundreds of years and established gradually, even down to the Sufragette movement as recently as 100 years ago in Britain. The problem in the East is that it came overnight, lock stock and barrel, as the result of a kind of Tsunami of political change and people just don't know how to deal with it. It's a case of 'ok off you go and be a democracy now', 'oh thank you, but how do we do that?' There isn't a real understanding of democracy yet and it will take a long time before there is.

I am not talking about serfdom but about slavery (please reread my post). The French revolution did indeed abolish slavery on 4th Feb 1794 but .. Napoleon reinstated it in 1802 (let's not forget that Joséphine de Beauharnais who was at the time Napoleon's wife was born in la Martinique in a large estate that employed many slaves.). It was definitely abolished on 27th April 1848 under the 2nd Republic

If you're talking about 'democratic' practises and customs such as they were practiced in Prussia and Austria. There was a limited experience of palamentarism and self-governance in a Russian puppet state the so called Kingdom of Poland (1815 - 1831) as an extension of a semi-independent Duchy of Warsaw(1807-1815). As well as lack there of (democracy )in Russia.

Westerners talking about Poland in the 19th century display very often a tendency to narrow it down to the area around Warsaw.
Also one need to take into account that nobles in the Polish land incorporated into Russian Empire enjoyed considerable degree of autonomy and their own elective bodies with certain legal privileges and rights. That corporate like autonomy had endured until about 1850'.

Serfdom had been abolished in Austria and Prussia long before the 1860'.


Hmm ... equation slavery with serfdom is not very promising comparison. Somehow the line between slavery and serfdom is thin and uncertain at times.
When in comes to the US I bet to differ. It stems from aspirations to become a man of statue and means - an aristocrat (you could argue that aristocracy is not necessary of the feudal origin, but it was in 1590' England) and an early capitalist system of indenture - a contract within a system of unfree labour.

Hence the American Slavery system was born. Nothing about a white man superiority I'm afraid.
To add an insult to the injury. In Russia there was no feudalism. In Poland you would find a nearly a trace of the system that existed in France. In Russia serfdom was more akin to the slavery system and in Poland at for the most part in reminded more like expended indenture.

Hence the term feudalism is not every useful or helpful for understanding society.


Hmm ....how about 400 years of development and practise in the art of democracy? More citizens able to vote than any so called modern country until second part of the 19th century. If we exclude USA none could vote for their head of state. In Poland they could.


WTF? What east? If we talking about Poland we can talk about being long out of practise.


What is democracy Atch? There is no and never was a one model of it. Even US are not democracy, not really - republic is something different. Plus the meaning behind that term changes and evolves.

Besides is a moot point.


You're in for a surprise then.


Whatever that means.
In fact Poland is struggling with a post-colonial syndrome and dumping all the countries of the region into the some basket is not very helpful to recognize their problems and challenges.


In other words. I don't know why and have no alterative solution but it must be bad. Tell Mr Atch to grow up!

As you can see it was Wincig and not I who made that comparison. I was merely responding to him.


Sorry the syntax doesn't make sense. What do you mean? And why 1590 in particular?


I'm well aware about the different 'versions' of Poland that emerged under partition.


It's not about voting. It's about a national mindset and culture. What Poland always lacked was a large enough, burgeoning middle class of native Poles. It's with the middle classes generally that the idea of social equality which underpins democracy, first finds expression. Social change occurred on a massive scale in Western Europe during the nineteenth century but not in Poland nor the countries in that region. The foundations of modern democracy and the modern political system were laid in that time. The eighteenth century was the age of enlightenment but the nineteenth saw the spread of liberalism and democratic ideals.


Former Eastern Bloc, Warsaw Pact countries, regarding of their geographical position, accepted definition.


There is no such thing as democracy. It's an illusion. But the illusion that passes for democracy hasn't been very well developed in Poland yet.


Agree. The US is a police state where there exists a very successful illusion of personal freedom but in reality it's a highly controlled and controlling environment.


Though you're not half as clever as you think, I don't believe you can really be that obtuse.

There's an excellent, if lengthy essay here:
economist.com/news/essays/21596796-democracy-was-most-successful-political-idea-20th-century-why-has-it-run-trouble-and-what-can-be-do
which examines among other things, the struggle to establish democracy in newly freed countries. It sums it up very neatly:

Building the institutions needed to sustain democracy is very slow work indeed, and has dispelled the once-popular notion that democracy will blossom rapidly and spontaneously once the seed is planted. Although democracy may be a "universal aspiration", as Mr Bush and Tony Blair insisted, it is a culturally rooted practice.

Western countries almost all extended the right to vote long after the establishment of sophisticated political systems, with powerful civil services and entrenched constitutional rights, in societies that cherished the notions of individual rights and independent judiciaries.

The article is not one sided, I might add. It also takes a critical look at our so-called democratic institutions such as the EU.

Bad news for Poland-bashers, Good news for decent Polish patriots! A survey by pollster CBOS found that 51% percent were satisfied with the government's performance since Szydło was appointed prime minister after PiS came to power in late 2015, three percentage points up on April this year. Almost half -- 47% -- of respondents were happy with Beata Szydło as prime minister. Meanwhile, 38% were dissatisfied, down three percentage points. CBOS said that was the best result since December 2015. In January 2016 Schetyna annoucned his macrhing and snitching campaign (ulica i zagranica), causing rating agencies to downturn Polands' standings and prospects. The study was conducted by computer-assisted direct interviews from 5 to 14 May on a representative sample of 1,034 adults in Poland.

Yeah did you see what happened to the zloty due to the downrating, do you know who was behind it and made a tidy profit on the currency market by manipulating polish politics, I expect you to guess the name in one.

Has anyone seen the news that the ex prime minister of Poland and now head honcho of the EU is making veiled threats against his own nation for not taking on the migrant masses. When his tenure is up at the EU he won't be back to any heros welcome in Poland thats for sure.

And future President.

No 'veiled threats' by the way. He's simply and decently outlining the rules that Poland has agreed to follow.

The Atlantic Slave Trade, was not primarily a US undertaking, remember only about 6% of Africans enslaved by that actually ended up in the US (where treatement was far better than in other places where slaves were essentially worked to death).

The current media climate treats slavery as something dreamed up by white americans but it was actually more marginal in the US compared to other countries (and was on the way to dwindling and dying it until the cotton gin made large scale cotton production feasible).

Jaroslaw Kaczynski. I claim my prize..

If so, then Poland is in for its first ever presidential impeachment. Or perhaps a re-run of the Narutowicz case. No-one could possibly expect such anti-Polish pond scum, treasonous Donald Targowica Tusk, to occupy the Presidential Palace for too long. In fact, it is highly unlikely for him ever to get elected in the first place.

I remember when it looked like Lech Kaczynski was going to be removed from office.


He's actually the candidate most likely to win.