Is this the first clear and open signal that Poland makes preparations for war with Russia?

I am just a citizen of Ukraine, Lonman. True patriots are those who fought on Maidan. 97 of them are not with us anymore (over 50 still missing and thousands of injured). These are our Heroes.


Kryjivka :) I like it too :)


I agree. This supports my point. I recall the movie "Patriot" with Mel Gibson. Of course, it is a movie, but still it is based on factual events. The Americans had Something to fight for, while the British army was trying to hold the colony. It would have failed sooner or later. Besides I would say that the Ukrainian army is better equipped and trained than militia. Our government and the army do everything possible to prevent the war, because everyone understands what it would cost in human offers. The West should use all possible leverages, diplomatic, economical, political, financial to not let this moron Putin kill thousands, destroy countries and bring another world crisis.


Trainers, it would be amazing. The US have great expertise. I still don't want the war. I pray.
Thanks so much to your country, Lonman, the US, for the support. I like Senator McCain and State Secretary Kerry. Both veterans and great individuals, understanding the consequences of the war.


He is not a warmonger. He simply understands that Putin is Hitler of today, which will not let it be without drowning Europe in blood.

No I don't think so. NATO isn't worth much at this time, not even for us in Poland. Sorry, but for you NATO is worth nothing. They won't do anything to protect your country if Putin decide to grab it. Sure, our politicians can talk and even cry if they like, but most what NATO will do in a case of that kind of aggression is draw a line on our Polish-Ukrainian boarder.

When it comes to this kind of things I'm realist. I for myself don't believe NATO would help Poland if Putin decide to fight us. Polish politicians feel it feel it also, that's why you see this panic in Polish politics. I would love to be wrong, but IF conflict escalate and Putin will go for eastern Ukraine, you will face guerrilla war (backed up by gear from other countries but no official help).

As for Poland, we need nukes. And I believe we still have a lot of time to get them ready (if we haven't already).

Nice one Barney: even Russia Today shows that you're lying there.


rt.com/news/minority-language-law-ukraine-035/

I wonder why you didn't mention that the law was forced through during the previous regime. Or that it was widely regarded as unconstitutional.

And why don't you tell us that the new president of Ukraine vetoed the repeal bill?


You seem to overlook the fact that only fifty-something percent of the people in Ukraine are ethnically Russian and that a sizable chunk of the ethnic Russians do not want Crimea to be part of Russia.


Taking land is one thing. Holding it without paying a high price is quite another.


The US military in Europe has the ability to turn the entire Russian army into glowing dust.

why should I, the point is that Russian speakers were being targeted but feel free to make as many non points as you like.

The very obviously horrible, horrible thing about nukes is if they go beyond being used as a deterrent and kill or poison totally innocent civilians and conscripts. Although there is some argument that they have kept the peace for some time due to MAD, which is obviously a plus, they and chemical weapons should have been banned. That said, when a war comes along it's hard to imagine that a desperate and losing side would not get hold of them again and use them. So, yes my argument is naïve.

a) The situation was proposed to be restored to what it was before the unconstitutional change to Ukrainian law was physically forced through under the Yanukovych regime.

b) Even that limited action has not been taken.
c) The man who proposed the 2012 bill in the first place called the opposition MPs who protested against the way that the bill was illegally forced through parliament 'fascists'; how surprising that you're singing from the same hymn-book as him.


You mean facts such as the only reason ethnic Russians are in the majority in Crimea is because of ethnic cleansing carried out in the region by Russians? Or the fact that even the Kremlin's own pollster has released a poll showing that 73% of Russians say that Russia shouldn't be interfering in Ukraine? Are those the 'non points' you refer to?


And now the world has seen what happens to a nation which gives up its nukes and trusts international guarantees of its safety (i.e. Ukraine), no nation is ever going to give up its nukes in the future.

The history of the Crimea is common knowledge and a non point similar to advising a thirsty man to drink water.

You refer to an opinion poll, well the last major poll in Ukraine elected someone the Fascists didn't like; someone the EU was happy to deal with and someone who faced street protests after he chose the package that was cheaper and more favourable to the Ukraine.

Its a bit cheeky to bring up the constitution in defence of actions and proposed actions by leaders of a coup which was led by neo nazi parties. Parties with members displaying the "88" symbol and who blame the Jewish/Russians on their own problems, that makes them fascist neo nazis. Feel free to support them if you wish they have no mandate but you know better don't you?

For the first time agree with you Harry, if not that silly trust in the West's moral obligation, there's a possiblity that Russia would be a bit more hesitatnt in invading a nuclear country.

But oh well, as a Polish nationalist, I say: Don't ever trust anything on paper, build you strenght, modernise your army and strthene your economy.

As a famous man once said:
Only the strong of this world have allies.

Do you always support rewarding those who engaged in ethnic cleansing or only when the people who did it are on the side which the British government isn't?


As you yourself said on the previous page of this thread: "Winning an election doesn't give you a blank card to do whatever you want."

Do you always support criminals who loot tens of billions of dollars from their own nations or only when the criminals are on the side which the British government isn't?

Making a statement of fact is not supporting anyone and is particluarly pointless when the fact is not disputed. That is what you did above and why I described it as a non point.

Yes winning an election does not give you a blank canvass it doesnt give the loosers ot that election a blank canvass to overthrow the government either. Harry what is your point?

At no point have I voiced support for any Kleptocracy or taken a political position for contrary reasons. That is in your mind, would you like to link to the quotes you clearly think I made? Again harry you are arguing with something I didnt say, that is decidedly unhealthy.

Barney, i absolutely agree with you here.

In fact, meddling in internal affairs in Ukraine, in a way how it was done, we can even say how USA interrupted democratic processes in country. Its the problem for itself.

Yes he is a warmonger just ask the Americans. Neocons are famous for being warmongers. And Putin is nothing like Hitler. Its not even close. Its just propaganda gone crazy.


The Eastern Europeans states are nothing but a wall that would absorb any possible Russian attack (probably wont be one).
For example putting US missiles in Poland is not good.
I am skeptical if they help Poland too but who knows.

The fact is that you seem to support the right of the people of Crimea to decide which country they should be in. But another fact is that ethnic Russians are only in the majority in Crimea because of ethnic cleansing carried out there by Russians. Personally I very strongly feel that people should not be allowed to benefit from ethnic cleansing which they have carried out but you appear to think otherwise. Fortunately Poles do not share your views here.


Something very much along the lines of the point you made when talking about Poland "Any government must bring as many people with it as possible including people who didn't vote for it." Yanukovych completely ignored the things most people in his country wanted (in particular the 'please stop stealing billions of our dollars' bit), meaning that the opposition were able to draw enough people to protest and enough votes from MPs to be able to remove him.


How many thousand US troops are currently in Ukraine?


The problem is that you know nothing about this part of the world or what people here think. You'd really do better to just forget about Poland and focus your affection on Russians.

on the contrary to you, my virtual friend, i giving my best to be objective. So, i see several rising empires on the scene. Those are USA, EU, China and Russia.

Speaking of Europe, seams to me, all countries from Baltic to Balkan and Black see are on menu. It would be how Empires decide, considering that are all of us who are objects of partition, quite incompetent to take care for our own business.

Let me show you one article, few years old. You can see how man said great truth.

Plight of Central European Nations in the Wake of Western Oder Demise

By Igncy Nowopolski, on August 28th, 2008
agonist.org/plight_of_central_european_nations_in_the_wake_of_western_oder_demise


See, man spoke about new Commonwealth. So lesson is, if we fail to form Commonwealth, alternative is partitions of all countries in the Central and South-Eastern Europe between the rising empires.

Poland has already chosen to join one of those (and is very happy in it). Ukraine wants to join that same one (in part because they can see how good things are over the Ukrainian-Polish border); however, Russia doesn't want it to.

There are too many seems and appears there Harry.

I do not believe that the Crimea should leave Ukraine I don't support secession in my own country or in Serbia (Kosovo) so why should I support it in the Ukraine?

The point is that there in nothing that the Russians did that any other country faced with a similar situation would not have done.

Good to know that you support Northern Ireland staying in the UK.


Care to give us any examples? Other than the most striking ones, i.e. Nazi Germany and Austria and Nazi Germany and Czechoslovakia....

Man I turn away for a few hours and conversation gets good.

Nathan et al - As history tells us Russia has been in Crimea for 200 years. Yes under Stalin some terrible things were done to the Tarters (sp). I do see the Tarters as being a problem possibly. Fact is the Russian army is big enough and there is enough of a majority from what I can see for it to stay in Russian hands for now. Maybe there will be some political soulution some day...

As to US capability. Read the article. There are only 2 brigades of US ground forces left in Germany. NO armor. Fewer air craft - no ground support. Also all the NATO countries have been cutting and cutting their defense spending for years. US Sec Def Gates on his way out of office a couple of years ago took to task the Europeans for failure to do there part in paying for defense of Europe.

Lets face it. Obama and the EU leaders have always lived in a dream land when it comes to Russia. For the EU it has been easier to see Russia as they see themselves..... now they realized it was a trick mirror...

I have a feeling we will now enter a more calm phase. Curious to see what happens in Eastern Ukraine. The former commander of US forces in Europe made the interesting comment that Ukraine stations its soldiers in units near their homes. So you have units that have regional loyalties.... can you see the problem......

Good informative discussion.

Hope they have a lot more of these...

I see. So if Ukranians imagined their citizens were under some kind of threat in Russia, they would be just as likely to invade Russia as Russia is to invade Ukraine. I'm so glad you've explained the political realities in this part of the world to everyone's satisfaction.

Why would I? I'm a democrat and dont support undemocratic partitions as stated above.

The six counties seceded from the rest of the country and petitioned the English King to be readmitted to the UK. That was a deeply undemocratic division of the country. No I dont support an undemocratic militaristic division of my country.


Now you are being silly....again. You keep inventing ridiculous scenarios to make a non point.

Come on.... Russia basically saw an opening and took it when it came to Crimea. Hell author Tom Clancy in his last book laid out a very similar scenario for Ukraine..... read it...

amazon.com/Command-Authority-Jack-Ryan-Clancy/dp/0399160477/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1393938810&sr=1-1&keywords=t om+clancy

No, you claimed Russia did what any other country would do. Therefore, the invasion could just as easily have been the other way round. Or do you not understand what you yourself write?

Yes In similar circumstances the (converse) circumstances you attempt to outline are not the same. The Ukraine contains large amounts of Russian speakers and Russian ethnic people.

The air lifts and European "peace keepers" entering African Countries to protect their people would be comparable.

Edit


I think I'll pass on that

I understand. It was something similar to Hitler's invasion of Poland, which at the time contained large numbers of Germans.

The Russians did what any powerful and aggressive country would do to a smaller and less powerful neighbour, and not what any country would do.

In general, if people abroad populates a country, in this case russians. And they live there, get kids and more, ane d still holding the language and other traditions. This do not give them right to raise the russian flag and get help from russia/Putin. They have choosen to live in Ukraine and should respect that they are in a other country. As I understand the first demostartion was towards the leadership if ukraine, and not towards citizens that originate from Russia. But in the betwen situation the russian people in ukraine take advantage of the situation, and Putin take advantage of support inside the borders. Clearly there has been a policy of somekind to have a big russian population within Ukraine. And with this, all countries should be careful with beeing populated by a big group of people from one country.e

Putin and the corrupt political system needs to get a real lesson in how the global world is today. Even if you have military power, you can not do whatever you want, even in your backyard. US is not a saint, and have never been. But they have made the world more safe in the long run. If Sovjet, not had had US, they had rippen the world to peaces. And it looks like Russia in general without considering political stands points has a tendency to actually let a small group run the country and take decisions. And the elite is make themselves and other that supports them rich. In US and western world it is so, but in a other way. Its more open. In russia people that speaks up, go to prison or worse. Its sad, but Russia needs a lesson. If not taken in account the political system and the agression, russia has a lovely culture. But why do what they do, they know by history in time all countries around them do not want to be tied, but think freely, and act freely.

Russia has a lovely culture of killing or sacrificing millions of its inhabitants and those they ruled (like Poles)

Poland neither has the capability to build them, nor the money to buy or maintain them, or the political weight to even own adult toys like that.


And this is the reason why Poland should never be allowed to have nukes... :)

yeah. Komorowski could send Polish army to Britain...ha ha ha

My Russian friend was at that protest. It was the first illegal protest she ever participated in, but she was so angry that she didn't care anymore that she may get arrested...


Of course.

I was watching Russia Today now and then for a few days - their coverage of the crisis in Ukraine.
It was so biased with very one sided information being given that all you could call that coverage was pure, primitive propaganda. I haven't seen even once the footage of people at Maidan getting shot (I'm sure you have all seen it on Western news channels). They were only showing over and over again Berkut policeman being thrown at with a gas grenade, as far as I can remember, and "facist rioters with guns". Noone was asking the Ukrainians why are they there, reporters simply weren't talking to people in Kiev.

What was funny was that they were showing for at least a couple of days the bullet hole in a window of a hotel near Maidan where the journalists were staying that was supposed to prove that Russian journalists were targeted and it was sooo dangerous. It was being shown even after the agreement between Yanukovych and the opposition was signed.

Etc. Etc.
I suspect majority of those reporters didn't grew up in Russia so I was wondering what do they feel when they say all this load of crap. Do they have no human decency?

Now I know what one of them really thinks: youtube.com/watch?v=ZolXrjGIBJs

They said about it on Polish TV and there's info about it in Polish press: I wonder if she still works there lol

I've watched the press conference with Vladimir Putin. Now I don't doubt that Merkel really said to Obama that Putin lives "in another world". Most of it was disgusting.

What was really revolting was that he lied in the face.
He said, as far as I can remember, that the mysterious soldiers without insignia on their uniforms surrounding Ukrainian military bases and blocking airports in Crimea are local men who are members of self-defence groups o_O What?? I don't even...

There is an elite of the Russian army over there! lol Airborne forces, special forces, etc. I mean, there are photos of them, video footage, you can see what they wear, what weaponry they have, how they move, how they behave, in what way they hold their weapons even.

Local militia my ass lol

When the journalist who asked about this insisted that they look rather well equipped and dressed for local self-defence groups Putin answered that you can buy stuff like that in military shops.

(I wasn't aware that one can buy a VSS Vintorez in an on-line shop :))
Just like Ukrainian "facist" rioters from Maidan could buy such stuff, according to Putin, and who were trained, according to Putin, at... military bases in Poland and Lithuania :D I... I don't even... :D *facepalm*

When asked whether this "local militia" was trained by Russians he answered: "No".
:)
Btw, among those "facist, anti-Semitic" rioters at Maidan were former IDF soldiers who have come to live in Ukraine. One of them was a Jewish businessman and he became a leader of a group of young men at Maidan. Go figure :)

Poles coined a name for Putin. It's Putler (Putin + Hitler). Or Fiutin ("fiut" means "dick" in Polish).
Polish former Minister of Foreign Affairs A.D. Rotfeld said that history has broken off its leash.
I was afraid that something might happen eventually. I just didn't know where exactly and I didn't think that it will happen so soon and so fast...

In one discussion with smurf in Random Thread I wrote that Poland needs time and peace to develop... I hope we'll have both this time.

And I really can't believe my eyes... I didn't want to live in "interesting times" :(
I feel so, so, sooo sorry for Ukrainians... And I'm so angry. And worried.

It's not propaganda, Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries, the oligarchs who funded the coup have been appointed governors in the East.

These political parties are anti Semitic russophobes and openly fascist.
One of the founding members of the svodoba party Andriy Parubiy helped found the social national party of Ukraine.

These guys are in charge of the army, police, justice and secret police. Their behaviour in Western Ukraine is frightening especially if you are a Russian speaker. It takes a special form of fascist to make Putin look good. I can't blame him for taking decisive action against this bunch of fascists.