Is this the first clear and open signal that Poland makes preparations for war with Russia?

Actually it's a Ukrainian matter and doesn't involve any country around it. Should be between Ukraine and Russia everyone else stay out. This is how you keep conflict from spreading. Restraint and conflict resolution, then retreat. Face it, Ukraine is in crisis at the moment.

That's not what happened, a western backed fascist coup in Kiev installed an illegal, mish mash of thugs in positions of influence. The defence ministry is now under the control of a neo nazi who believes that all Ukraine's problems come from Jewish/Russian bankers. Russia simply moved to defend its ethnic minority. There is no country on earth that wouldn't have behaved in a similar way.

The territorial integrity of the country is for all the people of the country to decide no matter what their language or their ethnicity is the, last time they were asked they chose a government not favourable to NATO.

Barney


Didn't know you're a Putinist Barney hehe

I'm a democrat, if the right wing nut jobs had stood for election and won then there would still be a problem however they could argue legitimacy. But they didn't stand for election they have no mandate.

this is what kind of democrat you are

if PiS won election in Poland it would be a problem, no?

btw is Jaceniuk a right wing nut job - I thought he was in Timoszenko's party

Supporting Putin, or not, has nothing to do with it. This is about restraint and conflict resolution above all else. Like it or not, nations will police one another so remember that before you decide to have your revolution.

Winning an election doesn't give you a blank card to do whatever you want. Any government must bring as many people with it as possible including people who didn't vote for it. Of course if an election or referendum is fought on a particular issue the majority view must prevail.

So Ukraine will have the right to police Russia when the Ukrainian minority rights in Crimea are violated, are they?


and PO government did just that yes??

I thought Russia is there to protect the minorities from the fascist coupe?

No one is threatening the Ukranian speakers in the Crimea, the fascists in Kiev removed the language rights of the majority there and some called for deportation of Russian speakers.

Barney


they didn't manage to form a government yet already managed to revoke the language rights for Russians in Crimea interesting very interesting - I wonder where you get your information from - looks like ITAR-TASS

well Barney, look what the great Russians/ Soviets did to the Ukrainians in the past

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

c'mon Barney, it's time to humble up.

Old warfare is evolving into conflict resolution.

The first thing they did was remove the right to have any minority language as an official language in the same session as the vote to remove Yanukovych. The guy who brought the motion forward also called for Russian ethnic people to be deported he is a right wing nut job one of the "Jews are responsible" crowd. These events were widely reported but you must have missed them.

4 eigner there is no point posting the internet here, I'm well aware of the events described it still doesn't give them a mandate.

so they voted out Janukowycz - there was no coupe right - btw I don't believe your story as Janukowycz's party had the majority in Ukrainian parliament

well, it explains the general sentiment of the Ukrainian population toward the Russians, right? can you really blame them?

We all know the kinds of problems "Jews Are Responsible" crowds have created in the past. It's best to send someone in early before it gets too crazy and they are all brought up on war crimes after destroying half their country. Quick! Stop them before it's too late!

Pretty much all the anti-Semites are saying the US needs to help Ukrainians get rid of the Russians from Crimea. It's really pathetic.

Crimea is a strategic point for Russia. It was always theirs even though it's Ukrainian territory. Russia is not getting new land, they're just protecting what they already had.

Yes, there is no excuse for being a nazi. Certainly be as right wing or libertarian as you like but don't discriminate.

Gumishu, the only way to remove a Ukranian president is to have a 2/3 majority of all MPs in a free vote. That vote was not free and the 2/3 majority was not met. The facts are real it doesn't matter how much of a crook he is, he was democratically elected and removed in a coup. His party were the largest indicating that the people threw out the previous corrupt lot, the ones in the Orange revolution who did nothing except make themselves richer but they had to wait for an election. The street protests came only after he rejected the unfair terms offered by Europe, you cannot have financial policy dictated on the street.

starving to death millions of people (about 7), is pretty much the same as gassing millions of Jews in my books. Let's call them all Nazis then. I'm not looking for excuses, just being honest.

As far as our military engagement in Ukraine however, I've already stated above, I'm against it but only because I hate to see our guys die for another country. Other than that, I condemn the Russians for what they're about to do and this is all I want to say in this thread as it looks like it's gonna be one of those threads where we'll be repeating the same ole crap forever, without coming to any real conclusion, anyways not one that will satisfy all sides.

You guys enjoy yourself ;-)

God help us with the kind of leaders we have today.

"First they came for Georgians, and I did not speak out because I was not Georgian. Then, they came for Ukrainians, and I did not speak out, because I was not Ukrainian.... to be continued?"

Meanwhile in Kaliningrad...

Looks like Poland is feeling a little threatened. They have aske NATO to have a meeting under Article 4.



According to the Ukrainian Envoy to the UN:

The biggest knife in Putin's gut would be fast-tracking Ukraine and Georgian NATO membership, and Ukraine's EU application process.

They won't do it though. At least not anytime soon.

"You call it a coup, in the democratic world we call it a revolution of dignity,"
In the real democratic world it's a coup, the man was elected and the losers forced him from power. Of course a man who owes his job to an illegal regime will say what they want to hear and he duly obliged.

I can't get enough of foreign politicians standing in Kiev lecturing the people of Ukraine that outside countries shouldn't interfere, they do it without a hint of irony.

israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/178068#.UxUa6YW3uKI

Good article on how the Ukrainian nationalists are nothing but ignorant antisemites and russophobes.

I have been following closely these events. Though admittedly not so much from the Russian point of view. All I know from my interaction with Russian and Serbs in the past is they do see the world from a very different point of view in many cases - especially when it come to nationalistic issues.

1) Crimea is gone. Russians have it and no one has the power or will to take it back.
2) The east of the country in the next question. I assume now Russian paramilitaries are slowly moving into pro-Russia cities and countryside. So when/if they decide to move they will be ready and have forces to open the doors for conventional forces. As long as Russia can keep the bloodshed on the low side I have a feeling W. Europe and the US are not going to do much.

3) Ukraine is not part of NATO so don't expect much. The security guarantee from the 90's not worth the paper it is written on.

4) Right now Europe and the US/Canada etc are confused and unsure what to do besides offering diplomatic threats. Their worldview has been upset and don't know what to do with a govt that is not interested in talking and laughs at empty threats.

5) Poland is doing the correct thing by moving troops to the border region of Ukraine. If a shooting war starts they will be very busy securing the border, working with refugees, and other issues. Poland is a member of NATO so the line is drawn there.

6) If Putin wanted Ukraine he could own it in a mater of weeks. Think lighting war of 1939-42. I am sure the Ukraine military would fight hard for awhile. But the draft call up will make little difference as it takes a long time to train a modern solider in the art of modern warfare.

7) The US Military in Europe currently has little ability to take on a large well armored Russian army.

Just my thoughts for now.

Wrong. Hannibal had half of the Italian peninsula, which is much bigger than Crimea. How did it end? Carthage was leveled with ground and Hannibal army destroyed.


Wrong. There no pro-Russian cities in Ukraine. There some groups of a few thousand brain-washed scum bags, but the rest of the population doesn't want war and majority will fight Russians to the end.


Wrong. It is worth and respected by the civilized world, because this is how the civilization is built: on the word that is upheld/kept. Otherwise, there can't be any agreements, contracts, insurance etc. anymore. God forbid, the moronic Putin starts the bloody war, the NATO will provide us with the weapons, because this lawlessness of the KGB scum has to end somewhere. Otherwise, he will go then for the Baltic states, Poland, Slovakia etc.


Wouldn't you be confused about what to do if you are dealing with something that has no values, doesn't keep words and is only interested in destruction?!


Correct. It is important for Poland to be ready to protect its citizens, because psycho Putin is capable of ruining Polish lives too. The scum has no restraint.


Wrong. A soldier even with no experience fighting for his family, children, land, backyard is hundred times stronger any professional soldier, who is the aggressor and who is dying for nothing, just because Putin told him to do so.


Russians were bringing tons of dead bodies of their soldiers from Chechnia, which has total of 1 million people. Russian soldiers will be cut down by the partisans on the streets.

Nathan

I am glad I got 1 out of 7 correct.

I can tell I am dealing with a patriot.

I should amend a couple of my comments though.

6) Ukraine has a history of irregular / partisan warfare (I drank in some underground bar in Lvov with this theme once) that bled the Russians and Germans. But it does take time to turn farmers and businessman and students into soldiers. Since you went back to Hannibal for an example I will go back as far as my own countries Revolution in 1775. Our militia did well in ambush and in defense in the first battles but could not stand against the regulars of the British. It was not until regualar training by professional soldier (a Pole) did the tide change. Not saying anything against the spirit of Ukrainian fighter.

7) Ill amend this to say US does have military forces just not the type needed to fight a ground war in E. Europe if it came to it next week. But I don't see Russia be that crazy to take on US and US will not at present time but ground forces in Ukraine. I could see US Special Forces trainers thought and other intel spec ops types.

Ill let the rest of my comments stand.

Nathan thinks Neocon Mccain is a smart person. Only lunatics would actually agree with that warmonger.