About fifty injured after two trains collide in Poland

That's not quite so. PKP has applied for a huge amount of EU cash for upgrading the network. The detailed plans have been submitted, and are being minutely scrutinised by Brussels. These guys leave no stone unturned, and PKP have been extraordinarily open about the network's shortcomings (I can't say how I know this here).

As for today's tragedy, it could, and does, happen anywhere.

No I don’t but that’s true not just here in Poland but the world over. I have not seen any institution admitting to wrong doing lately or taking responsibility for negligence or whatever disaster they may be responsible for be it the government or private institution. The government inquiries that follow or the so called independent investigations, criminal investigations, what have you, buries everything under tons of legal or technical mambo jumbo documents. The corporate world is no different in that respect, the individuals behind the helm so to speak are never punished or brought to justice for the negligence that happens on their watch. Paddington rail crash findings are a perfect example of the wonderful system at work, since the dead guy holds all the secrets as to why he proceeded on a red signal the cause cannot be determined for certain leaving the question of the problem with signal system which was reported and well known to the administrators in limbo, no one to blame. That’s the extent of the British transparency you are so proud of. I’m afraid the findings in yesterday’s disaster will be similar to that of Paddington’s. No difference really, be it Polish or British.

Why lie? The track was being modernised at the time.

It does look more and more like human error. The last time anything like that happened the woman whose job it was to operate the level crossing in question was jailed. But before jumping to conclusions we should wait for the inquiry. Let's hope the media don't let them sweep it all under the carpet.

that doesn't excuse it though.
Just coz shít happens somewhere doesn't mean it should happen somewhere else too y'know?

Was anyone held accountable over the last accident? If not, why not? Will it be the same again this time? If so, why?

Let's wait and see. I expect a full and objective enquiry for the reasons I mentioned. PKP are not in any position to cover anything up. Let's not have the Smolensk effect here, please.

I still can't believe how it is possible that the trains might collide in the XXI century... so many innocent people lost their lives because of somebody's carelessness...

the line has been very recently modernized wiht instances of controls and signals malfunctioning in the result (read it on a railway forum) - there is a severe technical crisis in Polish railways that was developing since 1990's (not enough skilled technicians including) - it's very easy to assume human error but the realities may be very different and we won't hear about it very soon if it was not human error (because as the memory is still fresh the outcry in the society will be much greater)


there was a different type of accident in Baby in Piotrków Trybunalski area (derailement) - the engine driver was arrested for good couple of months (for the sake of what actually - many commentators said that only for the sake he couldn't speak to the press or he would damage Tusk's rule publicity) - it was like July I think - the commission still works - and the situation was rather simple - looks like they tried to cover or at least hush things up

This track was fully modernised and the process was completed . The works which were being done at that moment were routine, thats why one track was closed . The other train could enter conditionally while the lights were red and it was up to the railway post crew to manage this train go through safely while moving on the wrong track . The train was on the wrong track and on the red light . So the automatc system could not prevent this accident .

Talking about only human aspect . I find Polish people particulary sensitive and I am proud of our compatriots who rushed to the crash scene to carry on help . Among those folks there was a young men who helped few people to get out from the wreckage trains before the rescue teams arrived . The rescue teams arrived very quickly and the action was held very professionally There was around 450 fire fighters at the scene , 35 emergency crews and two helicopters and also 16 four legged friends .

Translated and shortened interview with a train dispatcher, with 20 years experience (not involved in the crash). Gazeta Wyborcza, March 4, 2012.

1. Cause of the crash? Possible incorrect setting of the so-called junction head; that is, the entire system of junctions located on the track. It is a train dispatcher who controls the junctions, but it is not known yet if the one on duty made a mistake. It could have been a breakdown caused by one of the junctions being faulty. This will be decided by investigation of a special commission. The junctions are always sealed and hence it is easy to determine in what condition they were at the time of the crash. For now we only know that the train dispatchers on duty were sober.

2. The status and the actual positions of the junctions is displayed on the desktop of the train dispatcher. He should have noticed if there was anything wrong with them. In such a case he could press the special "radio stop" button, to stop all trains in vicinity of 20 km. He could also radio the trains directly to stop them. However his reaction time is critical since the breaking distance is about 1 km for a train travelling 120 km/h.

However, the train dispatcher on duty does not have any camera view of what is happening on the tracks. He does not have any special monitors showing that the trains are going at each other. These things are just in the movies.

3. The trade union of PKP train dispatchers appealed for fair assessment, if it is proven that it was a human error at fault. The reason for this appeal is this: the public does not know that train dispatchers are responsible not only for what happens on the tracks, but they must also be both stokers and cleaners in their workplace. There are stations where they also sell tickets and announce incoming trains. It's absurd.

my condolences for this tragedy to all who are Polish

Serbian national and private TV media/news dedicated few minutes to this tragedy. It was said that 16-th victim was founded

No Monia. The usual line was closed as part of the scheduled A154 modernisation programme. Though human error (as in most other Polish transport accidents) seems likely at the moment, as Boletus suggests, there could be several reasons.

To moderators: I know it's wrong thread but I can't discuss in news section. Below comment is about the rail accident. I promise it's my last one about this subject I'm posting like that. I would be very thankful for moving it to the right thread. Thanks :)


No Jonny you are the one who is wrong. Many foreign media has incorrect informations about the accident due to a fact that a first information (which turned out to be wrong very shortly) was that it was one-track route whereas the other trackrail was modernised. In fact the modernised part is near by but bit further from the place of the accident. To check how it looked see this map:

wiadomosci. gazeta. pl/wiadomosci/1,114871,11282341,W_jaki_sposob_pociagi_znalazly_sie_na_ tym_samym_torze_.html
Above article also speculate about the reasons of the accident (but it's in Polish)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Twisting and turning to try to evade the issue that this, like most other transport disasters in Poland, is somebody's fault. Sad, when so many died.

In other words, they're doing everything to escape blame for this already. Ridiculous.

Trying to blame the conditions (when they were silent before) is ridiculous - and I'm pretty certain that the people who handle the movements of the trains/level crossings do not do those extra things, except on very very quiet lines and certainly not on the CMK (which was designed as a high speed line from the beginning).


The problems are partially due to the way that the Polskie Koleje Państwowe was broken up in the first place - it was a rather idiotic way of doing things. Add to that chronic underinvestment, along with an attitude of many workers that belongs in 1950, not 2012 and you've got a recipe for disaster.

What's disgusting me at the moment is the way that the cross loonies are trying to pin this on Tusk.

Evidently you have no experience in the train industry whatsoever. Firstly you have no understanding of how large an organisation a PKP was, and the complexity of it. Break up was always going to cause problems. Perfect solutions are only available to keyboard warriors, not in the real world.

The cheap worker jibe is a tired old neo-liberal media line. Its easy because it doesn't involve any thinking. In any business there are good and bad people. There are good and bad teachers in your school. Fact of life.

If we want to find a failed railway system, we need to look no further than Britain- the most expensive railway in Europe, overcrowded with ticket prices rising 8%+ every year.

Privatisation was a miracle for a dozen mega-rich transport moguls!

neither did the 30-odd people who have died because of the Polish rail system in the last 6months.

Typical Polish reaction to blame everything else except themselves, that's why this country will never achieve the lofty heights of the delusions of grandeur that it espouses to. And that sucks coz I have to live here in a country where substandards are the norm and nobody wants to try and change anything because that would involve gettin up off your arses, taking responsibility and rolling up sleeves. And we all know that the Polish go-getters immigrated from here a long time ago.

Obviously people managing PKP and those, who nominate and control them are to blame. I said it yesterday and you didn't like it for some reason.


Why ? You forgot where the doors are ?

Really? Can you post evidence of that? Presumably most of them were cars/pedestrians.

Still, it shows how safe the railways are. 30 dead is a tiny figure compared to road travel.

For comparison the UK has over 250 deaths per year on average of trespassers/suicides on the railways. Accidents to passengers and staff are on top of that.

transport-watch.co.uk/transport-fact-sheet-2.htm

You don`t have to live here . If you had some guts you would achieve something "grandeur in this substandard country" . If "nobody wants to try and change anything because that would involve gettin up off your arses" why don`t you take adventage of such easy conditions that Poland gives you , go for it .


My question to you , who was responsible for the deaths of those 7 victims and 76 injured ?

Why are you pinpointing at Poles , while the same accidents happen in UK too? Why do you use w phrase " typical Polish reaction " I could say " typical British reaction to blame everything else except themselves .

Today the two train dispatchers were detained by the prosecution .So wait for the final conclusions before you come with the verdict.

What? You attack me for attacking the idiotic way that it was broken up, then go on to say -


Eerrr...you do realise that the Polish model was based upon the British model, with a few "improvements" that were even more of a disaster?

The original PKP should have been reformed along the lines of the German model - it works well in practice, the national operator is protected to a certain extent (which they need in order to invest - look at the power that the ROSCO's have in the UK!), the regional trains are run on a cost effective basis (instead of the moneypit that is Przewozy Regionalne) and in general, the system works.

Instead, we got the situation where we have the Intercity company fighting against another State owned company (nonsense), the "regional" train operator is losing a huge amount of cash and is exceptionally crap (and the absurdity where PR is funding loss-making trains to compete against PKP IC when it's not even in their remit!), a track operator that demands the 2nd highest track access charges in Europe, a multitude of small companies connected to track operation that were privatised and now demand their huge cut - the whole thing is a complete and total diaster.

I could also go into great detail about how the PKP Group are shooting themselves in the foot repeatedly - but it's best just to read

wordpress.com/polishrail

You're in a minority of one if you think that Przewozy Regionalne has a place in the market.

yes, I do. Do you think I'm here by choice? No way, Jose. I'd leave in a shot except I'm tied down with a missus and a kid.


nothing's easy in this place, just mountains and mountains of paper work for even the most trivial of things. Try being a foreigner in Poland, it ain't easy to get anything done.

Hey ya never know, I wouldn't mind going into local politics, but I need to vastly improve both my Polish & Silesian. I'd join RAS though, I think Silesia deserves autonomy, but that's for another thread I suppose.


How the Hell would I know, I've never heard of Potters Bar. I'm not British so I couldn't care less what happens to the British rail network. I said that in an earlier post, maybe read the full thread. I live here, work here, pay my taxes here, use the trains here and I find it an insult that some heavily unionised PKP clown would try and deflect responsibility already.


You lot just don't get it do you? Needless deaths. People are dead and the most probable cause is human error, yet all ye wanna do is play down the numbers. Even if it was only one person it's too many. The attitude to life here is very very different. If it doesn't affect you, then you do not care. Makes me sick.

And in regards to road safety, what are the authorities doing to try and bring down the number of deaths?
SFA, that's what.


After your sick comment yesterday you shoulda been banned. You're a cold prick Greg boy and I want nothing to do with you.

30 dead is a bit less than three average days for Polish roads. Although that is far more due to the way that Poles drive than it is to the inherent safety of the Polish road network.

Michael:

I'm glad you didn't try to defend the cheap jibe at the workers.. glad you are finally seeing some sense.





Its evident from your comments you have nothing but hyperbole to add to the debate. The shrill squeal of a keyboard warrior taking information from a blog. You need to realise that blogs are written to attract readers and that doesn't always involve giving a balanced, objective account of the facts.

PKP IC and PR do some things well and others not so well. Same as DB, Russian Railways or even your school.

PR successes are in the same bracket as 'government efficiently completes XYZ project' in terms of news/blogs: who wants to read something mundane and mildly positive?? Bad news /controversy sells - the masses like something to complain about.

Clearly you have not read recent financial reports on PR to be familiar with the current financial situation.

Some appreciation of the complexity of the task and considered analysis would do you a service, compared to tabloid hyperbole soundbites

Just leave together Many Poles left Poland for greener pastures , why can`t you ?


Why don`t you focus on something constructive instead on whining . Such attitude will not help anyone. Why didn`t you go there ( you say you live in Śląsk )as a volunteer to those victims to give them hope coming out from a foreigner who is on a survival in Poland .

You need to remember that the vast majority of the deaths on Polish roads (4,572 dead in 2009) are caused by human error and that relatively few people here get hugely upset about that.

When it happened I had some alcohol in my body, would've been illegal to drive.
My knowledge of first aid is pretty poor too and I doubt that any of the crash survivors/cops/straz woulda been in the mood or have the patience in such a stressful situation to try and listen to some lad with pigeon Polish.


I was, I was saying that those responsible should be held accountable and should be sent to jail. Every family should receive financial compensation too. The rail system needs to be computerised further and the unions that have so much power in PKP should be taken apart. This would all be both constructive and progressive. Will any of them happen? I think we can agree that none of the above will actually happen.


yea, I know that. I cannot understand why they don't though. I cannot wrap my head around the overall feeling of absolute apathy that the vast majority of Polish people and the Polish government has towards the issue of road safety.

The workers of Przewozy Regionalne are an utter disgrace and should all be fired, but that doesn't need to be said. There is absolutely no excuse for some of the practices that go on - 4 staff (not including the driver) to work a three carriage provincial train is one splendid example, not to mention their utter contempt for the people who actually pay their wages.

Then there's the vast amount of overemployment. One station that I travel to semi-frequently has someone who is solely employed to make announcements and to operate the level crossing. It could easily be centralised - but no.


I assure you that the writers of the blog (proper address - polishrail.wordpress.com) know far more about the Polish railway system than you, I or indeed anyone else on this forum. The fact that you insult them by insinuating that they have an agenda shows that you haven't got a clue about the railways here. Well, sorry - they do have an agenda, and it's one that sees the railways thrive.


My school? But I don't have a school... I don't even work for one.

Przewozy Regionalne do nothing well. The whole company is falling apart, they owe vast amounts of money to Grupa PKP - and the only reason they're still going is because they aren't allowed to go bankrupt for some odd reason.


What successes? They don't have any! Grupa PKP has quite a lot to shout about, especially the success of the Dworzec Polski campaign - but Przewozy Regionalne? Please...all they've done is cut, cut and cut connections. The same morons even managed to cut connections to Zamosc!


The financial situation that sees them owe tens of millions, the financial situation that has seen the provinces set up rival train companies to destroy Przewozy Regionalne once and for all, and the same financial situation that saw them close down many ticket offices? I'm thinking about my local station - as with many others, Przewozy Regionalne shut the ticket office. They were then reopened by agents - who work for longer and sell a wider range of tickets.


Przewozy Regionalne was doomed from the moment of creation. It was a diabolical idea to create a "national regional" operator, especially as the provinces could easily have run the trains themselves.

Privatisation in Poland was even worse than in Britain, that much is certain.

Wow, there really is some thinly masked hostility on this thread. I'm going to pray that the victims rest in peace and that this is resolved so that it doesn't happen again.

An absolute masterstroke that. A city which should be one of Poland's crown jewels when it comes to tourism and they make it harder to get there. Genius, pure genius.

As for the accident, I'm surprised that there is still a direct train from Warsaw to Przemysl. I'll have to investigate that one (Przemysl is a cracking little city, the only downside is the lack of decent accommodation).

A great example as to why Przewozy Regionalne should never be allowed near a train.

The latest piece of genius from them is to cut many connections from Cieszyn, making sure that people have no way of commuting to work!