Failures of Poland and Tusk`s government

democracy is necessary for people to learn, they cannot learn if they cannot choose - sometimes what they choose will make them suffer but this is part of the learning

Lol, my comment was tongue-in-cheek.

But yes, I would be shocked and disappointed if someone like Palikot were elected into power.

Why? Quite a few people in Poland believe the church exerts too much influence on the country`s life and they would like to do sth about it. That is why they voted Palikot two years ago.

So, can you stop saying who should be voted in or out in Poland and leave this matter to Poles?


Come on, what a silly opinion. Palikot declared war with church and 10% decided to follow him. It was their right to do so. Pure democracy.

the church costs the state only around one billion a year - the only thing I can say is wrong in Poland regarding the church is teaching religion lessons in public schools

You see? Such people like you voted Palikot in order to get rid of religion classes in schools.

So the Polish state can confiscate Church property, and then instead of giving it back, it just throws a tantrum, says, "Waaaah! The Church is greedy!" and keeps it for itself? Fine, but I don't think that's fair.

And what's wrong with teaching religion in public schools? Why shouldn't people be taught religion?

I frankly think it's an excellent idea if kids know about the religion that has been part of their country's culture for centuries or millennia, and that it's pretty anti-intellectual to censor, for purely ideological reasons, such an important part of what should be every young person's curriculum.

I wouldn't mind if they teach Slavic paganism and Eastern Orthodoxy in addition to Catholicism, if they wish to, since nobody has to believe in anything if they don't want to and those three religions have been the most influencial in Polish history.

Similarly, in the UK, equally, compulsory lessons in Germanic paganism, Catholicism and Anglican Protestantism would, in my opinion, be hugely beneficial in helping people understand how the modern values of their culture have developed.

Seriously, how is teaching religion different from teaching history? And how is it possible to understand a culture without understanding not only its history, but the beliefs which it has stood for over the years?

Haah, Polonius, I gotcha!! :):):):):):)

But I agree. :):):):)

What?

the state should be confessionally neutral Charlie - besides it costs us money 1.3 billion PLN a year

when I was a kid we were taught religion on church premises and everything was fine


he is being paranoid

Contact with you caused that. :):):):):)

Why? The greatest empire the world has ever seen was Anglican, not confessionally neutral :P

I'm just teasing.

But how is teaching religion a violation of religious neutrality (if such a thing is possible)? It's just facts. Catholics believe so-and-so. Eastern Orthodox believe so-and-so. Slavic pagans believe so-and-so.

If that's somehow religiously intolerant or politically incorrect, then I think that that's wrong. If Slavic pagans come along and say, "Teaching chemistry contradicts Slavic alchemy and therefore violates the religious neutrality of the State," does that mean Poland has to stop teaching chemistry? Now, that's a joke, but I think it's wrong for a nation to sacrifice teaching facts, and especially ones about its culture, at the altar of any ideology.

The State should be active in educating the next generation of Polish citizens and not a generation of Stateless neutrals. If the ideology means the State has to reject an important part of its history and culture, then, at least from my perspective, the ideology is harmful, and it's got to go. If religious neutrality does this, then sorry, I know it's become a sort of dogma of modern politics, but I cannot support it.

And 1.3 billion PLN is not that much.

Since religious neutrality as an ideology gives the absurd result of preventing the State from transmitting the culture of the nation it represents in the very schools that it funds, I propose religious freedom as a better idea than the vain pursuit of neutrality.

Instead of the State sacrificing its national culture for the sake of trying to be religiously neutral, I propose that its job should instead be to ensure freedom of religion by refraining from using its coercive power to suppress religion.

I think this way we still ensure a State that is friendly to people of all religions and none, without the absurdity of censoring the school curriculum of one of the most important aspects of national culture.

+1


Re3feredum and majority will decide!


You can have-it and like it or you can have gays awareness courses.


+1

Do you count it as Tusk`s another failure that he didn`t cut the RC Church off this state financing/sponsoring?

teaching mostly Catholic religion at school is anti-freedom even from religious point of view

They teach according to popular demand. Sorry. :):):)

but the state should not sponsor this education at least and preferably it shouldn't take place on school premises

If it is for the good of the nation, then it should.


If somewhere else, naughty students won`t come to class. :):):)

Oi Zorro most parents are all right with that, majority rule ///

How is teaching Catholic religion any more anti-freedom than teaching mathematics, history or the Polish language? What's the sore point about religion? It's entirely up to the individual what he or she believes, but I believe it is beneficial for him or her to understand what his compatriots believe or have believed in the past.

Why keep people in the dark?

If Greece were still a pagan nation, I think it would be absolutely ridiculous for it not to teach Greek Mythology as religion in its schools. It's an integral part of what made Greece Greece in the pre-Christian era, just as much as the Greek Orthodox Church is an important part of what makes Greece Greece today.

In fact, I think it would be great if Greek Mythology were taught in schools today, not only in Greece but throughout Europe. It's a fascinating and still important part of our common European culture, and I don't think teaching Ancient Greek Religion would be at all contrary to freedom.

Even Communist Poland celebrated the 1000 year Anniversary of Poland's Christianisation with grand military displays, not because the Communists were particularly fond of Christianity, but because it is such an important part of Polish culture and statehood.

All Polish people have a right to their own religious beliefs, and there are millions of Poles who are Orthodox, atheist or agnostic, and many of these same Poles sing Polish Christmas carols, abstain from meat and alcohol on Christmas Eve, bless their święconki over Easter and take part in many Catholic customs not because they're Catholic, but because they're Polish. What's the harm in understanding the religion that has been such a profound influence on Polish culture?


Why? Catholic and Anglican schools make up a third of state-funded education in the UK. I myself am grateful for having gone to an excellent Catholic state school in the UK. The school had a Christian ethos and sought to instill positive values among students, who were Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, atheist and agnostic. I think it did an excellent job. Nobody was forced to stop being Protestant or Muslim. Nobody's freedom was sacrificed. Scotland too has Catholic, Protestant and non-denominational state-funded schools, and religious education is compulsory in all three, without detriment to anybody. I truly admire this relaxed, British approach to government funding of religious education, as opposed to the more radical, ideological approaches common on the Continent. I think it's a fantastic demonstration of religious freedom as opposed to religious neutrality.

And honestly, if I went to school in a majority-Muslim country that respected religious freedom, in which, as part of the school curriculum, we had to learn about the Qur'an and the life of the prophet Muhammad, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It probably wouldn't make me Muslim, but it would give me a better understanding of the culture of the country I lived in. It would certainly make me a better-adapted and integrated citizen of that country, regardless of whether my own personal beliefs were Christian, Jewish, atheist, agnostic or whatever.

Do you think teaching the concepts and rules of satanism would be equally good???

Another success of PO run authorities - Koleje Śląskie - they managed to create a communication chaos which is still ongoing - sorry no sources in English for it - the president of the company Marek Worach had been deemed mentally ill in an attempt to avoid conviction for actions in his previous company - this is competence a la PO -

Why not? What's wrong with learning about Satanism?

It's not particularly relevant to Polish culture, but there's no harm in knowing what it's about. Most people, for example, don't know that many Satanists don't actually believe in or worship the Devil, but that their philosophy is based on the elevation of the human will as the highest good, frequently summed up in the maxim, "Do what thou wilt."

Modern Satanism has different schools of thought, based on the writings of Anton LaVey and Aleister Crowley, for example, and there are theistic Satanists too, who do actually believe in worshiping the fallen Angel as a deity. As far as I'm aware, most Satanists, both theistic and atheistic, attempt to realise their wills through strange rituals they call magick.

Heck, I've studied Satanism a little, and I'm still a Catholic. It wouldn't bother me one bit if I had been taught about it in school. So, if Satanism were an important part of Polish culture, then certainly, I would want kids to be taught about Satanism instead of being ignorant of the culture that they live in.

If kids were taught about Satanism in school, then those raised in non-Satanic families would be much better equipped to understand, dialogue and do business with devoted Satanists in their adult lives, and if Satanism were a significant religion in Poland and a part of its culture, then I think it would be ridiculous not to teach it.

Teaching people about an important and influential religion does not take away their choice whether or not to believe in it.

more about Koleje śląskie - among different other things - yet again in Polish.

To sum up, I do not believe that schools should withhold knowledge about relevant and important subjects on the basis of a misguided political ideology. A school's job is to nurture the development of a young person's knowledge and culture. It's job is to teach and not to perpetuate ignorance.

kcharlie

you hijack attention I was seeking with my posts charlie :P
I don't like you ;)

Don`t be so selfish. Other guys also need some attention.

Besides, is charlie`s reasoning too logical for you?


Yes! Good example. Simply speaking - chaos on railways in Silesia.

I found a link for you:

railjournal.com/index.php/main-line/train-shortage-plunges-new-polish-operator-into-chaos.html

thanks pawian :)

It's you who brought up the juicy topic of Satanism, lol! How could I not respond to that?

For the record, I oppose the privatisation of national infrastructure and I'm horrified by the Polish government taking steps in that direction.

It's not worked out well in the UK, and worse, we've had Deutsche Bahn buy up a British rail operator. Before you accuse me of being xenophobic, here's the kicker - Deutsche Bahn is not really a private company. It's mostly owned by the German government! It's madness!

So instead of being privatised, a part of the public transport network operations in the UK has just gone from being owned by the British government to being owned by the German government.

You couldn't make it up, lol.

Thanks to privatisation, though, Électricité de France now supplies my electricity. It's mostly owned by the French government. (Ssssh, don't tell anyone). And they go by the name EDF. How very clever (!).

EDF - doesn't Gordon Brown's brother work for them? Wasn't he working for them when Labour was surreptitiously helping them into the market?

we have similar things - former Telekomunikacja Polska is now mostly owned by France Telecom which also is mostly government owned company

Another example of economic liberalism gone wrong.

I'm all for privatisation, but on condition that

a) the industry is actually privatised and doesn't go into the hands of another government, and

b) the industry would actually operate better under the private sector (which is seldom the case when it comes to national infrastructure or certain strategic enterprises).