Poland -- Europe's only counterweight to Russia

Quite. More heat, less light.


That's an interesting one, though fraught with risks.

Indeed, our western powers belong to the less credible ones, given our history.


Individual politicians only represent their own ideology too. Still, they can reach millions of people and influence their opinion. It doesn't make it a "good" opinion either. A good number of the persons who commented (those who disagree with you) are also the ones who dig a little deeper and compare different sources to have the most accurate opinion. They don't want Putin to invade Poland, they want Poland to stay independent, they may even want Poland to remain a member of NATO, but they don't like this situation. And I understand them. I too don't like having politicians who can't stop crying wolf.


At least I try to give you real answers. Not just a few one-sentence evasive ones, as you do.
Geopolitically speaking, you really sound like the most naive of the two of us. Your only argument is: Russia is public enemy number one. And when I ask for details, you always seem to have a hard time providing them. Talking about weak examples...


I'm still waiting for details about these so-called threats. I need solid evidence, not your ideological emotionally-driven feeling of the situation.
I don't care about Russia being disliked or not. This is not the point here.

As to your quotations, if you still rely on what that silly Waszczykowski (and the Pentagon) says, there's nothing I can say. These people are the most hysterical of all. I don't know if there's a precedent where more weapons and troops ready to fight = security and peace.

But the worst part is that, since Russia has very probably never planned to attack neither Poland nor the Baltic states, the bunch of hysterical mentioned above will congratulate themselves from preventing a Russian aggression (that wasn't going to happen anyway).

Are NATO troops going to be sent to Slovakia too? If not, does it mean that Slovakia is in danger?
Come on, let's go back to reality and stop this craziness. It would be funny if it wasn't that ridiculous and dangerous.

"though fraught with risks." Quite right Jon but remember the Warsaw uprising, some future invader would do well not to underestimate the will of the Polish people to fight for their freedom.

Especially if they were armed to the teeth with the correct weaponry for a Guerrilla war

Shut up nasty EUnuch. Russia always feel threatened and provoked unless one commit suicide or becomes a Russian puppet state.

Easy, buddy. I never insulted you.


So giving Russia a good reason to feel threatened by stationing NATO troops in Poland is a good idea?
Do you see the contradiction or should I explain a little more?

You think Russia is more credible than the free world???


in Europe it very much is just that - as has been explained to you before.

Very sad to hear what is basically Putinist apologetics, flying in the face of all reason and above all, against the best interests of Poland and Europe.

Russia feels threatened by the sole existence of Poland, Latvia etc. It's a kind of "can't you give them Danzig and everything will be allright !?" thinking on your side, that is the essence of EUnuchism.

Russia wil kick butt one day when it wakes up to itself. Until such time we have threads like this to help it along.

Most likely, her very own butt.

So you are aware that USA regards existence of a strong Russia in geopolitical terms as a stabilizing factor in this part of the world. If you are talking about NATO role and western actions and plans you need to remember that one rather important factor.


That is an obvious conclusion right? To Poland a neighboring country with a strong military and a history of aggressive policy towards Poland that proved to be many time over to be hostile to Poland and country's very existences than some Muslim camel worshipers in a remote location. What they can do? Blow themselves up and repeat it few times? Not nice, but nothing to be overtly concerned with.


Hmm, the point of the matter is that don't need a good reason in your understanding of the term. They don't think like that for them Poland need to either part of Russian sphere or at lest to be a vassal state. Russia see independent Poland as a threat to their own existence or at last to their own existence as the world power and for the present for them there is no distinction/difference between those two. At the very least see Poland as an ample and able tool that can be used by their 'rivals' to undermine them.


Provoking? You mean Poland is not an impendent country that can invite however they want to station on her territory? Interesting.
What is Russia so afraid of? Are they seriously think that the NATO troops will invade Russia? What reason has NATO to attack Russia and who they are going to overcome nuclear weaponry of that country?

NATO troops on the Polish soil are not a threat to Russia or to the Russian security. Those NATO (American) troops by their very presence thwart all long term plans Kremlin might have to restore a former glory of their Russian/Soviet 'empire'!


Are you for real? I see if I invite people you don't like to my house you as a good neighbor will be justified to eventually set a fire to it? Hmm ...that is the way the Russians might think but that just give a strong credence for having a strong presence of an allied armed force on the ground. Just in case. After all normal people do not think like that.

Seriously though, that is Russia claimed certain right on Poland, which Poland clearly deny. There is conflict between two countries as to the status of Poland. The latter refuses to succumb to the former's narrative and claims that there are certain rights and privileges Russia enjoys in Poland.


Bring it on! Either Russia recognizes Poland's status as a country free in its own right or she can act as if would have some claims on Poland in which case it will all end badly for Russia.

Anyway there is no war possible at the movement. Russia is weak, unprepared and not ready for war at the movement and the way they act is a typical in those circumstances according to their doctrine.

Dammit, I'm outnumbered ;) I don't have much time but I'll try to answer everyone.


I don't know. But I know that Afghanistan, Irak, and Libya were not destroyed by Russia. They were destroyed by (y)our free world. The one who officially respects countries' borders and territorial integrity.


No, many countries in Europe are not as russophobic as Poland is (who is probably urged by some US advisors, like Brzezinski). Many countries are actually getting tired of the sanctions. France, Italy, the Czech Rep., Slovakia, etc.


How can Poland or Latvia be viewed as a threat to Russia's security?


Could you explain me the concept? Never heard of it before.


As long as Russia aligns itself behind Washington, right? Views seem to vary a lot (among US analysts I mean). Indeed, some say that Russia could be a stabilizing factor, others say that Russia is America's biggest threat (a threat to its national security). Unfortunately, I'm afraid the latter view currently prevails among US leaders.


You know, back in the golden days of Poland, Polish troops invaded and annexed eastern lands too. They even almost reached Moscow.
We like to see Poland as a poor eternal victim, always. But give Poland the means to fulfil its ambitions, and see what happens.


That may have been true. But not anymore. Let's be pragmatic. Poland is part of the EU and NATO. As long as I know, Poland doesn't want to invade Russia, nor does it want to impose any ideology or anything. Poland is nothing to Russia. Except a trading partner. Today, Poland is clearly in the American sphere of influence. There's not much Russia can do about it. Invading Poland wouldn't help.

BUT if Russia annexes the whole of Ukraine and maybe Belarus, then okay, we'd have something to worry about.


It's all political, and playing with each other's pride. Yes, it's a little game between nuclear powers (kinda risky). "If I do this (stationing troops and weapons close to your border), what will you do? What will your answer be? Will you be scared and show the rest of the world how "weak" you are? Or will you play with us, show your muscle, and station your own troops on the otherside of the border, facing our own troops, and see what happens next?"

It's never good when powers start showing their muscle. Because you never know if anyone will dare say stop before it's too late.

Talking about "allies", America doesn't care much about Poland. In case of a war, Poland would suffer the most. America is far away, it's easy for them to play with fire as long as it's far from their own territory and population. As always. As they did during WW2.

I'd rather have a real independent European (defensive) army than having NATO troops stationing everywhere.


Russia doesn't recognize the status of Poland as a free country?


Indeed. Also, a war would be detrimental for both Russia and Europe.

I have to go quick. Talk later, guys.

Already done, Poland started building a militia two years ago. Target size is 120k initially.


He's another Russian paid-for Troll.

I did read about the militia, and I will join when a unit is setup near me. but " Target size is 1"20k initially." this needs to grow to about 1 million

Arms and munition need to stored and be available in every city, town and village, lets see if an aggressor has the means to take out that kind of spread of munitions and arms , It would be a lot harder to hit than a few nato bases that's for sure.

Actually, mess in Afghanistan was started by Russia, they were involved in most of these ****** wars one way or another, same with Syria recently, "free world" is a negative factor over there but Russia is no better, unless you believe in RT style Kremlin propaganda that they are brave heroes, who went there to defeat evil ISIS and protect minorities. "World powers" have been making mess in peripheral areas of the world, that's what they do.


You ask me ? Ask them. Apparently, they want all ex-commie countries to be a kind of buffer zone without any serious military, either domestic or foreign. Otherwise they feel "threatened" and "provoked". The thing is, it shouldn't be their friggin business, we don't care much what they do around Moscow, they shouldn't care much what we do around Warsaw.


Yes and perhaps 200 years from now, Poland will acquire thousands of nuclear warheads, start invading neighbours, annex Wilno and Lwów and so on. You think civilized world should then think "let's do nothing, better don't provoke them" ?


Yes and If you haven't noticed, a lot was done to appease Russia, Russia-NATO council, no NATO bases in ex-commie countries, Russia in G8, NATO turned into a political club. Obama, Tusk and all other faggots have been trying "resets" with Russia and that brought only wars and muscle flexing on the Russian side. Since over a decade Russians have been on the offensive and if the other side does nothing, they will keep it going.

I wonder what will you say If the "little green men" show up in Latvia one day ?

* start a nuclear war with Russia ?
* oh we need more dialogue ! (**** Latvia, let them have it) -> then soon later they will try something similar with Poland, this time triggering off a serious regional military conflict that will likely turn into something much more serious.

The reason why the cold war didn't turn hot was that each side knew the other would quickly counter-attack. Would you scream back then that US, UK, Canada etc. should pull out of West Germany because Russia feels provoked ? Ever heard "If you want peace, prepare for war" ?


I'm well aware of that. That's why we should expect from "NATO" (US, UK) stationing here 3-4k soldiers and have a detailed plans to transport quickly 30-40k more in case of any crisis - to drag them here and force them to react if shyt hits the fan - If they like it or not. If they won't do that being more concerned about Russia's "feelings" - we should leave the whole "alliance" as it's worthless. Just like in in 39 we should have demanded from UK/France to move here a squadron of destroyers + 5 squadrons of Hurricanes/2-3 infantry divisions. Or else cancel the whole deal and start negotiating with Adolf.

Regarding "EU army" and such nonsense, it would be more likely send into action to put down "nationalistic governments" in some member states or airlift "refugees" than to defend anyone.

Russia is not the Soviet Union and at the movement graduated to fourth or third tier in the pecking order of the world powers. Heck, Putin insists that is not so but unfortunately for him reality begs to differ.

Anyway American regard for a strong Russia doesn't' equate with and offer of partnership and doesn't even imply anything else but position of a local power. Not that Russia is in position to realistically aspire to anything else.

Hence I doubt very much that USA regards Russia as a biggest threat to the US interests rather regards them as a nuisance.


Poland is not 'Russophobic' that is BS.


Annexed lands? Poland didn't annex no lands that didn't belong to Poland before. When it comes to Russia Poland attacked them only once and on that occasion Poles took Moscow (not almost) for three years and then offered union to Russians on better terms than that the EU's has to offer but they declined and chosen to remain barbarians.


It is a question of the point of view it is a question of experience and knowledge. Russia would have need to change her tune a lot rather than go for all those petty harassments and threats - about which none give a damn (expect maybe for the apple planters - what they ever done to ?Russia anyhow?).


Nah, it is rather Russia that is afraid of a fair competition with Poland on the other hand is unable to work out a real working compromise..


Really? so why they would set their national holiday or some such


on the 4rd October commemorating "liberation" of Moscow from Poles in 1612. Eh?


They would want to, no doubt about it.


It has nothing to do with our debate. We are talking Poland - Russia.


No, when Russia is weak and worn out then is the time she is showing off and presenting abs, acting aggressively.
So the right answer is they are afraid that the world will see them for what their are at the moment weakened and vulnerable.


No, they see Poland as a board piece to be played not as an opponent or a possible partner and here is the crux of t he problem. Is that is not obvious to you.

I think have 500k-1million men at arms is interesting idea. But like militia? I dont know. What about some type of reserves or paramilitary?


Does Poles really want thousands of American troops stationed here? Let me point out that many Germans and Japanese are sick of American troops. Once they come, how easy they leave, when do they leave?

Multicultaral US forces would like to be free and start ******** Polish women. There are cases for rapes commited by American troops in several countries they are stationed in.

And the Polish government probably wouldnt react just like the Japanese government ignored tens of thousands filling stadium to get rid of those bases.

If an all out war happens, do we want another WW2 where millions die? (something worst?) or become some like the Czechoslovakians who just gave in and lost far less? I dont know.

Personally I would try to balance the East and West.


Thats good point. EU army can have lots of problems. Following lunatic politicians (like Hollande, or Merkel), there is language barrier, and so on. But im anti-EU, not sure on Polson.


The US neocons would love to get rid of Syria and Assad as opposition. The Israelis and Turks would love it. It also reduces Russian allies.

And they are one step closer to Iran. All you need is to look at PNAC or some other group who wants to eliminate "problem countries".

I imagine that military industrial guys and zios are ****** atm.


Well depends. Large portion of Poles mistrust or dont like Russia. Some people take that even further and have gone almost paranoid when it comes to Russia.


Maybe on the first one, dont know on the second one.
But you know what? If its true, then the same problem with Germany and US.
Right now Germany wages warfare not by tanks but by money.
US just wants to be everywhere for "full spectrum dominance".

My opinion is the Russians have been on defensive since the fall of USSR.
They lost most of their former satelite states, and allies. They dont want NATO near them, since NATO has demonstrated they are an offensive alliance.

Ukraine, it was a color revolution (and the US has funded PLENTY of these).
Syria basically invited Russia to stop ISIS and probably NATO.
The Russian armed forces which is getting smaller and cant afford to stretch to Berlin or Warsaw anymore.
They are modernizing their equipment with more focus on airforce and navy, while tanks and personnel are being retired.

Anyway, I think Russia is closer to SCO and BRIC nations and they care little for Poland. If Poland gets foreign personnel or weaponry this can change. They are busy with East Ukraine.

So true. I find it laughable that the US will support tyrannical governments as long as they don't the US or allies problems. Yet the ones that oppose the US are called not allies or friends but rather evil and a 'threat to freedom.' Oftentimes, this might be the same government - in one decade the US supports the dictator, then invades him the next. The US supported Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war, only to invade him a bit later and eventually have him killed.


Russia is warming up to China and Iran a lot in everyway - politically, economically, militarily, etc. These countries' leaders have realized that the US is not as strong as it use to be. China's economy will overtake the US in a short time as their economic growth is far higher - it's just a matter of time. During the cold war, and even after it, US military leaders knew that if a future large scale war broke out between the US and other power, the US troops would be outnumbered hence the US focused more on having the technological edge. The US troops had advancements like GPS, night vision, accurate missiles, superior jets, etc. which are now pretty much universal in Armies. We've even seen recently how an Iranian drone was flying over a US aircraft carrier for quite a while before it was even detected. Many US and NATO military leaders state that they'd be unlikely to stop a Russian invasion - especially if they were engaged on two fronts (say China or North Korea attack from Pacific).

Poland, unfortunately due to it's geography on the world stage, wouldn't fare so well as it's essentially a buffer zone between NATO and Russia.


Up until recently - now Russia is increasingly on the offensive. They're starting to get back to the old Soviet model of building bases overseas.

Poland is in a weird position in all of this. It can't make too good of a relationship with Russia without alienating NATO and the EU. After all, that's essentially why the war in Ukraine broke out. The people in western Ukraine were more pro-EU while the people in eastern Ukraine more pro-Russia. Poland isn't quite in this same situation as most Poles have a fear of Russia due to our history. Nonetheless, I would love for Poland to make better relationships with Russia - especially trade as Poles (especially those employed in agriculture) would benefit quite a bit.

The current line seems to be "permanent presence" (of up to 3k soldiers) but no "permanent bases" so no huge facilities like in Ramstein where they pretty much built a friggin city and sit there since decades. More likely they will adapt one of Polish facilities and 1 brigade will be stationed there in semi-field conditions, after 6 months being rotated by another one. Yanks want to keep this case opened and likely when/if things cool down in several years, they will be gone and we won't beg them to stay. I know it's not white and black and in the long term we should rather try to form "3rd way" regional alliance but in short term it's not realistic and with all the things going on it's better to have them here than not. Being a NATO "half-member" like now is the worst situation, Russians treat us as an enemy anyway and "allies" will likely not lift a finger If we get attacked.

Regarding rapes, it happens when you bring large number of young men, Poles in the uk or elsewhere also commit sexual crimes... I don't think US soldiers are worse on that. The whole thing in Japan and elsewhere I think is more about US not allowing to trial their servicemen by locals.

Don't be ridiculous. I'm French-Polish. I have no connection whatsoever with Russia. Now back on topic.


The 1979 mess? The Americans did everything to provoke a Russian intervention (Brzezinski). They wanted the Russians to have their own "Vietnam war".


It seems that without Russia, the US-led coalition would have bombed Syria a long time ago. Not sure this would have helped the situation. And I'm not even talking about the thousands of dead such a brutal intervention would have caused.

Of course, I won't tell you that there are the bad Westerners on one side and the good Russians on the other. It's always more complex than that. Of course, Russia has its own interests in Syria. But these interests make them [the Russians] defend stability in the area, while our Western governments just want another regime change, at all costs. No matter how unsuccessful and tragic the previous regime change attempts have been.


I hear what you're saying, but could you prove me that that's actually what Russia thinks/feels?


The other side is too busy attacking sovereign countries ;)


Si vis pacem, para bellum. Yeah, I don't like it. That's good for the people who actually want war. If you want peace, work for it. Fixing problems doesn't always requires the use of lethal means.


This would actually turn Poland into a buffer zone in case of a war with Russia. Poland would be seriously damaged, but Germany (and most American/European important investments) would be safe.

Anyway, since I don't believe that Russia has any interest in attacking Poland, NATO is indeed useless. It just adds fuel to the fire. NATO needs conflicts to survive. Peace is not good.


I know, it sounds ridiculous. Still, that's what they pretend. Russia is an even bigger threat than ISIS.


The Polish government and Polish medias generally are.


You mean even territories in what is now Eastern Ukraine?


Because they consider it important for their national identity?
I'm talking about today's Poland. Poland is just an economic (possibly cultural) partner. Nothing else. I don't see how Poland threatens Russia today.


It is important. Because America plays with Polish people's fears about Russia in order to achieve its own interest, and many Poles still believe America is their good friend.


Russia was weak 20 years ago. Right after the collapse of the USSR. Things have changed. Russia is slowly regaining its position as a global power. And we'll have to deal with it. As long as they don't invade Poland (or the Baltic States)... ;)


No, clearly, this is not obvious to me. Any evidence of this?


Yes.
And yes. Russia's intervention in Syria is legal. No matter what the White House says.

Then he proceeds to read verbatim from the Kremlin party line

Yes, there is a distinct pattern here...

Which may lead to WW 3.


Russia has just set up a no fly zone for the United States to fight ISIS.
Russia has been moving tons and tons of surface to air missiles into Syria in preparation for war with the U.S.A.
Russia is building up their bases there in the last month like never before since talks went down the tube.
Poland being a NATO member will be drawn into the conflict like it or not.
Now Russia is really making a statement to Poland that they are sitting ducks.

WARSAW, Poland - Poland said Saturday it is highly concerned that Russia has moved nuclear-capable Iskander ballistic missiles into Kaliningrad, a Russian region on Poland's northeastern border. The Iskander, which can be equipped with a conventional or a nuclear warhead, has a range of 500 kilometers , placing most of Poland within its reach when they are in Kaliningrad.

Remember back when Obama and Hillary had a chance to squash ISIS in Iraq by taking the oil and Obama stated there was nothing to worry about that ISIS was "Junior Varsity".

Instead ISIS used the oil to fund themselves to the point of starting WW 3.


Yes they are as they have many weapons superior to what the United States has.
Russia has positioned themselves in a way that Poland is no longer a factor for Russia.

Poland should boot Nato and American forces / assets out of the country. Poland has nothing that Russia wants, let America and Nato have their fight with Russia somewhere else, at least we would get to sell some apples again.

The debacle of America getting involved in the Syrian conflict is proof that the US government has no qualms about invading any sovereign state that they are not happy with (If Iraq and Libya was not enough poof), no wonder China and Russia are not too pleased, let them fight their war in the desert and not turn Poland into a scorched wasteland so that the generals can play with their new toys and American politicians can pat themselves on the back for saving the world.

Except a border with German. Russia attitude towards the border countries is that they are part of Russia, they don't think Poland/Ukraine/Baltic states should exist.

"they don't think Poland/Ukraine/Baltic states should exist."

I don't think that is strictly true, they just don't want USA/Nato hostile states on their border, would you want a bunch of pikeys setting up camp across the road from you and $hitting on your doorstep.

As I said, they want the a Russian/German border, they don't believe that any other countries exist in between.

Nato has move their border and created non-countries such as Poland and Ukraine.

This is not my 'opinion', if you beleive in an independent Poland you should read Russian views on the subject.


Pretty much how Poland etc are viewed from Russia, installed by Nato

Well, PiS are at-least honest in their Russohpobia not like ''we were friends till Merkel ad Nuland ordered us to stop'' PO.

peterweg " if you believe in an independent Poland you should read "

If you care about a Independent Poland remember who sold out the Polish II republic to Stalin at Yalta, the US and its allies (NATO).

Ultimately it was not US or Nato troops and bombs that freed Poland from 60 years of communist rule it was the People of Poland who stood up against them in the same spirit that those who fought with Józef Piłsudski, to create the second republic .

Do you really want to see US and Nato bombs falling on Polish homes and hospitals , like Syria and Iraq.

As I said without Nato and US troops and missiles on Polish ground there is no threat to Russia, Poland has nothing that Russia wants.

In the case of War Russia can directly fire its missiles straight over the top of Poland into Germany and the rest of Europe.

Nato and the US want to plant their missiles in Poland base not to protect Poland but protect themselves, leaving Poland as sitting duck and a prime target for retaliation from Russia.

I wonder who the next nutcase president of the US will be?, the current choice looks grim, which country will they pick on to invade and bomb next .

Russia wants Poland as part of Russia.You are incredibly naive to think that Nato is a threat to Poland, without Nato Russia would reoccupy its former empire. Its purpose is to provide a buffer zone to fight a war.

Russia's plans was nuclear annilation for Poland - the Russia father land would escape. Nuking all neutral capitial cities to destroy their 'culture'.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Days_to_the_River_Rhine

theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/26/russia.poland

Even 7 years ago they were planning a nuclear attack on Warsaw followed by invasion

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/6480227/Russia-simulates-nuclear-attack-on-Poland.html

And today they are moving nuclear missiles into the Kaligrad enclave to threaten Poland

theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/08/russia-confirms-deployment-of-nuclear-capable-missiles-to-kaliningrad

peterweg " Russia's plans was nuclear annilation for Poland."

That's a no no for Russia, check out the prevailing weather systems that would blow the fallout back in their faces, in fact a smart Polish strike on the nuclear complexes within the Ukraine would turn a good part of Russia into a wasteland.

"Nuking all neutral capitial cities to destroy their 'culture'."

I agree that plan would work against most other European countries.

"Nato Russia would reoccupy its former empire."

Don't think so Poland still retains its home army spirit, and it's own independent militias, from what i see on the ground here there are plenty of people prepared to fight and follow the footsteps of Solidarity and General Piłsudski, plenty of young Russian conscripts will be returning to Russia in body bags on a daily basis, Do the mothers of Russia want another Afganistan? , As I said Russia cant nuke Poland without consequences to it's own people, they can invade anytime that's for sure, but they won't have happy times in Poland sipping vodka without the fear of being shot in the back of the head.

To add Russia has no quarrel with Poland as long as it stays neutral , Piłsudski was a great believer that Poland should stand on it's own two feet in the world without outside interference and I for one would agree.