Poland to end state funding for IVF treatment

Nice to see that you're insulting the poorest in society yet again. What is it with you, Polonius and other PiS lovers being so nasty towards poor people?

This affects many families Ironside, not just the poorest. Do you really think the average Polish couple can afford IVF treatment?
Bar the well off in Polish society, it will affect everyone. Or do you not think the average Polish couple deserve to have the chance of their own family?

Bar the Republic of Ireland and Lithuania, all other European countries have some form of state funded IVF, so why shouldn't Poland continue to do so?

The decision to cut this treatment just seems wrong, and unless something is done, the future population of Poland will be in decline as fertility rates are dropping.

It's all fair and well promising the 500 pln for second child upwards, but that actually hasn't come to fruition yet.

Yes, it is. But on the plus side it loses the 18%-regime yet more support (without winning them any at all) and gives tens of thousands of people reason to actually vote next time, to do their bit to prevent the PISlamization of Poland.

Really? They wanted to done away with National Health Service in Poland and somehow they can afford to found this treatment? I'm talking about common sense and realities on the ground. Are you aware they some people are waiting for treatments that mean to save their life for years, they can drop death any moment but to improve that there is no money - sorry.

While on IVF treatment - sure no problem, next they will found gender change operations or whatnot rather then do first what the health service exist for.

Is that what you are advocating for? Financing from public money treatments which are in fashion and are a signature projects of modernism but if people drop like a flies from the common illnesses - too bad, there is no money.

Really pam?

Not supporting ivf is Simply stupid no matter what side of the spectrum youre on. If you support a strong Poland full of poles you should do all you can to promote childbirth. As pis draws its support from wicked old commies the is not what they want though

No son you are stupid to put such a bare assed assessment unless you are able to support your claim by arguments.


IVF doesn't promote or induce people in Poland to have more children, it is not lack of fertility that stops people having children.


look for wicked old commies in your family, what a douche!?

People like that makes me defend PiS even though I'm not really that much found of the party but anything that goes against the system in Poland is a good for the country.

Sorry Dad, er... Comrade, you're totally right. LMFAO

What are you talking about? How can be going against the system always be good for the country?

Er, for the people who need IVF it is. Or do you think that people sign up for IVF because there's nothing good on TV and IVF sounds like a bit of a laugh?

Yes I know IVF is expensive and in an ideal world there would be enough money to go around to pay for everyone waiting for medical treatment, but are you really that naive that you think that the money saved from cancelling state funded IVF will mean that the waiting lists will grow shorter and that everyone will suddenly receive the treatment they are waiting for?

I don't think it will make one iota of difference.
Doesn't matter which government is in power, they will all lie and tell the people what they want to hear in order to get elected.


I hardly think that couples desperate to have a child of their own is something to be considered as fashionable!
How would you feel if you were in that position, and the treatment which might have made all the difference, is suddenly withdrawn?


To be honest by far the majority of health problems these days are linked to lifestyle. Obesity, smoking, excess alcohol intake etc
It could be argued that why should the state have to pay for what could be termed self inflicted illnesses,so would you say that the state shouldn't fund people like this either? They would save an awful lot of money after all.

Spot on, Chemikiem.

Medical treatment is a basic and yes, IVF should be funded. It isn't about the money here - it's entirely to do with religious objections to IVF.

Do they want people to have kids or don't they.

Sadly I think you're right.
PiS were opposed to it from the start on religious grounds, saying it's too expensive is just a cop out.

There is something weird going on right now with PiS and the church. I don't know what, but Rydzyk is openly furious with PiS (it seems that he even complained to Brussels about them...!) and the Polish episcopate is very quiet indeed.

Not sure what to make of it, but it looks to me like the Church was expecting immediate action on social issues and instead got met with Jarosław trying to push through his revenge agenda instead.

There is no one Church. Polish episcopate is distinct from the teachings of Christianity, and they very much dislike Pope Francis for his criticism of greed and luxury. Pope Francis also encourages peaceful coexistence with refugees and caring about natural environment, they don't like that either.

Then there's Rydzyk, whose teachings have been called a sect in the past. He twists words just enough to sound as if he's Catholic, but he's a power-hungry businessman. Initially the episcopate was quiet about him, then they reluctantly said they like him.

Wait until you see what they've got planned next in respect of family planning. It will grab headlines worldwide

Because the system in Poland is bad for the country and for the people. Has been from the start that simple enough to understand.


laughing ass? figured as much.


Well, we don't know that for certain do we? At least I don't know, I would like to assume a minimum good will on the part of the new government- to give them a chance.


No, but program that out of the sudden are being founded and financed by the taxpayers money to appease this or that lobby or to look good on paper as a progressive party that supports all those fashionable ideas that tick all the boxes of what exacted from so called modern and progressive government those days.

In this way they can have all the support of the media and real problems are being neglected.


I don't lack empathy Pam and I can as well sympathize with people who are surfing but it doesn't mean that I'm going to close my eyes to practicality and common sense in seeking a reasonable solution.


I'm against health services being financed by the taxpayers money and a state run system.


It is rather your head that is distinct from your backside only by the merit of their position in regard to each other.

No we don't, and if by the end of their first term drastic differences have been made to waiting lists etc, I would be the first to hold my hands up and say I got it wrong, but I don't have much faith in governments full stop. You only have to look at what's happening to the NHS in the UK to see that current and past governments are not addressing the problem, so why should Poland be any different?

In addition, the new 500 Zł for each second child upwards being introduced in the spring, is estimated to be costing 15-16 billion, you really think there will be a surplus of cash left over to pour into the health system?

IVF is one sure fire way of increasing the low birth rate that Poland has, albeit an expensive one.
It's all very well promising 500 Zł per child as an incentive to have children, but the overall cost is going to be immense, and are people really that stupid that they would go for this, when any successive government could change that policy and take that away too?


I get what you're saying Ironside, but in comparison to what will be spent on the 500 Zł per child proposals, IVF isn't looking at being that expensive a solution to Poland's low birth rate is it?

More than that though, it's just incredibly sad that a new government can make a snap decision to end the funding just like that.

I can't imagine how devastating that must be for those currently undergoing treatment.
I don't want to really get into the religious side of it, but PiS were opposed to the funding being introduced to start with, so it seems a rather big coincidence that all of a sudden that funding is withdrawn.


Well the only other option is private health care, and look at the mess they have in the US with that!!

The Minister for Health already made comments about how co-payments are inevitable. PiS are also talking about withdrawing funding from the "doctors of first instance" (effectively the same as a GP) as most of them work privately under contract to the NFZ, which suggests that they have intentions of bringing in fees to visit a doctor.

I hope not as that is going to hit the poor very hard.

Getting back to the topic though, nearly all other European countries have state funded IVF, and some of those countries are on a par with Poland economically. If the poorer countries can still offer it, then so should Poland.

Infertility is a recognised medical condition, and as such IVF should be available to everyone.

But infertility does not threaten one's health or life (quite the contrary for women). That means IVF is elective. There are also ethical arguments against it (I don't agree with those arguments but that's irrelevant). And those arguments have followers in Poland (to keep this on topic to keep the reckless mods from dumping this in random).

Put them all together and depriving state funding for an elective treatment that many people have moral qualms with seems to be an entirely defensible position. Rather than try to force Polish taxpayers to pay for it against their will proponents of state funding for IVF should engage the ethical arguments against it.

Don't worry, the healthcare system here isn't financed from your taxes.

You make a valid point and I can understand this, but I personally can't agree with it I'm afraid.
I don't want to go down the route of the ethical argument against it either, but I think being honest, this has far more to do with it than it being just a question of using state funded money.

I honestly don't see how that would work, after all the low birth rate in Poland has little to do with infertility.


Remain to be seen but that is not a subject of this thread.


That is an attempt to introduce in Poland kind of a child benefit. I really don't think that is the right way to go about helping people with children or induce they to have more children but that is not subject of this thread and I don't see how this has anything to do with the IVF treatment.

However IVF is not a solution at all as it isn't a part of the problem.


Well, they aren't going to stop it right away but gradually. I can see as their were against it and financing that program was highly controversial in Poland for a number of reason.


As I said it has been announced right way but factual termination of the program or more accurate - financing that treatment by the taxpayers money - will commence in about six months.


No coincidence at all as I said that projected has been controversial from the start.


They are in the mess now after implementation of the Obama Care Plan, it had been working before.

It's absolutely a religious thing.

A hugely unpopular decision here.

True, I think the birth rate has declined for many reasons, social change, lack of financial support such as that received in the UK, lack of creches/nursery schools etc, but unless women are encouraged to have more children, Poland will end up with a large elderly population and face problems in the future.

I was under the impression that the 500 zł per child was being given as an incentive for couples to have more children, a way of addressing Poland's future population problem, as well as being a type of child benefit.

The fact that there has been over 3000 live births and that 17,000 are currently undergoing treatment since state funded IVF was introduced only a couple of years ago, means that infertile women very much want to have children, and surely this should be something the government should be encouraging, given the fact that the birth rate is declining?


So you too think that it isn't really just about the money then.
Six months from now it will only be the wealthy in Polish society who will be able to afford the private IVF treatment available in Poland. So unfair.


Certainly looks that way.

It wasn't being given for that reason. It was nothing but "electoral sausage" - which is why they're now struggling to enact the policy as the opposition is constantly ridiculing them for their failure to pass the legislation required.

If they genuinely wanted to address the problem, they would sort out the lack of creches and nurseries in Poland. In some cities, it's not a problem, but Wrocław for instance has massive problems with it.


It is, although the opinion polls consistently show around 70% of Poles being for in vitro.


Desperately unfair, especially given the fat earnings that most PiS decision makers get.


Indeed. And they want to cut the retirement age. Mathematics is clearly not the strong point for PiS.

A little exageration, I've yet to meet anyone who really cares strongly one way or the other.

Legation hasn't been passed regarding the way and method those 500zl per child are going to be distributed. I absolutely have no desire to debate proposed legislation that has nothing to do with IVF treatment.

You seem to be implying that such a connection exist, I disagree.


Numbers as well as practicalities and costs of such a treatment renders it totally obsolete and useless from the point of view of population growth.


I think it was about the number of reasons as I already said including money, practicality of funding treatment to those families which can afford to rear children while at the same time a lot of families and hundred of thousands children are living in poverty.

I think that RCC view such a treatment as immoral might have been simply only an icing on a cake.
A fact in which jon and you seem to have taken extraordinary interest. That fact seems to agitate you something big perhaps because you attribute to it too much influence.

If and when the IVF will be banded in Poland then and only then you would be justified in putting this fact forth as an argument. However so far we are talking about funding IVF treatment from taxpayers money and in the Polish circumstances that can be seen as an extravagancy and luxury Poland can hardly afford.

Marek Pietrzyński from PiS has criticized HPV vaccines, saying introducing them is wrong because it assumes young women will have many sexual partners. Instead, they should be raised in accordance with catholic values. He says HPV vaccines are a part of a larger plan, like legalisation of prostitution.

500 PLN per child, that's what Prime Minister Szydło said during her expose. Not a single word about funding of children creches or kindergartens. Do you know why ?

They follow the Christian Democracy line of thought. Woman is expected to stay at home, give birth, raise children, cook and clean. If she had access to subsidized creches or kindergartens, she might do something unwholesome, like go to university or start a career.

There's another reason why 500 per child might not be a bright idea. It will make the biggest difference for poor families. Children born in poor families often stay poor. Poverty is largely hereditary - unless they have access to very good education. This is done in Finland, where teachers are prepared centrally in a top level university, then go and teach in some backwater towns. The result is that backwater town education is nearly as good in Helsinki.

I was just trying to point out that if the 500 zł per child is being used as an incentive for couples to have more children ( as well as being a type of child benefit ), it's going to prove to be very expensive, 50 times that which is currently being spent on state funded IVF per year.

I agree with you in that IVF isn't going to create a population boom, but better something than nothing, and it's making a lot of couples very happy.

A loose connection maybe, but still relevant.


Of course I can see this too, and any new government is going to look at where money should be spent, but I think the decision was made to withdraw treatment primarily because PiS were opposed to it in the first place. Countries poorer than Poland have state funded IVF.



PiS have very strong links with the church. It's not difficult for me to see the main reason funding was withdrawn. They were opposed to it, and very shortly after being elected they made the decision to withdraw it.

It's not that it agitates me Ironside, I just see it as being very unfair, especially considering that private IVF is still available in Poland.