Poland could emerge as new European and world power. If?

And Ukraina has 50 millions and is far from world power.While Netherlands with 16 millions is far more important and powerful.

That's your opinion.

Ukraine has a lot of potential.

But Ukraine does have its problems. First of all its population has gone down from 50 million to 45 million which doesn't help it. Also about 17 million people of Ukraine are a Russian fifth column that are undermining Ukraine.

Like I said before, part of making a country stronger is to make it as homogenous as possible along with making its population younger and bigger.

Then you have Nigeria. The days of large scale conventional warfare in Europe are over.


Israel, UAE, Qatar...those countries have quite a bit of weight that their slinging around. It's not population that's important, it's what you do with your resources. Stable population + Efficient use of resources = Superpower. Exploding populations means social problems unless you also have growth. Iran was a regional power before the population explosion, and would probably already have the bomb had the revolution not happened.

MW, you really shouldn't use Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia as good examples!

Yes, Hitler gave out medals for especially "successful" mothers but in the end he was only "successful" for the whole whopping length of 12 years.

Soviet Russia also came clashing down...now Russia is a superpower because of their resources not because of their people or because of their achievements in science, inventions or anything at all.

(What happens if renewable energy takes over big will be interesting to see..)

Not-Nazi-Germany with a shrinking population is one of the world leaders in many regards...up to par with the US (even as it has only the size of Montana and not even a tiny part of their natural resources).

The EU (this pit of tiny havenots) together have the same clout and power as every other big bully.

But many countries whose only resource are their babies are starving...THAT is not the way to go!


So...what about the US then?

It's not quite the model of a homogenous country and still one of the most successful ever...
How come?

What are you doing to make the US more homogenous and younger???

Yes and Poland is so stupid not seeing that...

Only way for Poland to ever emerge as a european superpower is to have strong connections with the east. Make more agreements with Ukraine and start to seriously invest in those countries to the east.

Aslong Poland is the voice for the east it will always be an important player.

Hmmm...at one time Ukraine will be probably a member of the EU...further east is then only Russia!

;)

My point is that Poland is not taking the advantage they got in the east. they care to much about west when they really should look more to the east.

Poland will have the same benefits untill the end of the EU whatever they do, dosen't matter if they send 100000000 soldiers to iraq or afghanistan. But if they start to have a healthy relationship with the eastern countries incl Russia it will strenghten it's position in europe and the rest of the world.

And if Ukraine is to become an EU member then Poland should really already now start to invest there heavily and really show Ukraine that Poland supports them to 100%. This would benefit Poland in a later stage when Ukraine joins the EU.

Curios...when Germany tries the same we are branded traitors, backstabbers and what not by the polish media...why is that???


It's a win-win for all sides!

If you look back 100 years of German history you will see that they already tried TWICE to conquer the whole Europe.

Reason enough i guess...

Erm...so did France in their history...Great Britain once ruled a third of the world, how do you think that happend? Through negotiations?...doesn't stop Poles.

Do you think that is a good reason for modern foreign policy? Do you think modern Germany is the same like Nazi Germany?
Why do you advise Poland to make nice with "Soviet" Russia? They attacked Poland too...

Hmmm...I wonder about your reasons!

Well it's much harder for Poland to get a grip of the old Powerhouses in Europe such as Germany France etc etc. While the new states such as Ukraine, Belarus, Moldovia, Balkans and the baltics etc etc always been under the Polish influence in one way or another. Therefore i see it as a good move for Poland to support those countries, and in the longterm this would benefit Poland politically and economically.

Now that is a reasoning I can accept! :)
The US had their Wild West and we have our Wild East...;)

But it's not so clear cut as in Estonia and Latvia the German connections are more prevalent (Hanseatic League) as only in Lithuania the Poles are (Commonwealth).

Or in the Balkans Croatia and Slovenia are more on the german side but Serbia etc. is more polish (I think).

And that Poland should use for it's own advantage!


You're talking about the population, im talking about political influence.


The Yugoslav idea was forged by the Polish Prince Adam Czartoryski.

"If" is a good question. If you put it like this, whole bunch of countries around the world might emerge as a new super power but most likely never will. As far as Poland, I don't think that it will ever happen because the nowadays Polish welfare is based (mainly) on EU financial help. That means, that things could quickly change in Poland "if" or once the help quits coming.

Well...I do too...there aren't any Germans in the Baltics anymore since '45!
But shared history shapes alot of modern influence...


Might be...but it was held together mainly by Tito's iron fist and proved an unsustainable concept without said "iron fist".

Polish nobility had huge land possesions in that area and kept many of the important seats there untill the late end of the 20'th century


Iron fist or not, the fact still remains that without the support of certain polish noblemens Yugolslavia would have never came into reality.

*sighs patiently*

Yes...you-Lithuania / we-Estonia and Latvia


*sighs some more*

No Yugoslavia anymore!

Well you're denying the historical influence Poland had in the baltic region while im just giving you the facts.

You can read some more in this book if you want too learn some more :)

books.google.com/books?id=5aoId7nA4bsC&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=%22Principality+of+Inflanty%22&source=web&ots=Z5ik5jytLG&sig=sHLHnYU1O5kUm0WUPDbAYNrIj5Y&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#v=onepage&q=%22Principality%20of%20Inflanty%22&f=f alse

PS.
I do admitt that Germans also had huge influence in the region, but stating that Poland did not is a lie... Probably something they teach you in the German schools!!!

Erm....I mentioned the Polish-Lithuanian empire, didn't I?

But you on the other hand seems to have no idea about the centuries of the Hanseatic League and that till '45 the german language and the german culture was important in Estonia and Latvia.

The same with Yugoslavia...I didn't deny the polish influence there but that this artificial construct had many default lines which broke up again after Tito's dead.

And that some of the ex-yugo countries have a longer history with Germany/Austro-Hungary than with Poland.

Your problem is what exactly???

You stated "Yes...you-Lithuania / we-Estonia and Latvia" that's why i came with some straight facts.


No i just stated that the germans infact did have an important role in the baltics. And indeed the Hanseatic League was an german invention but could only work with the help of the Polish cities and vassal states. Polish grain for the win!!!

You can read up about the polish grain here


venus.unive.it/olszewski/Polish%20Grain%20Trade%20-%20Krzysztof%20Olszewski.pdf


Nothing im just writing my opinions on a Public forum...

Well, there's a lot of scenarios and possibilities for Poland to build a strong regional
superpower status. Of course, the most vital thing is to build up our economy to
attract back the 2 million young people, who emmigrated west after 2004.
Then we need to apply strong pro-family policy to encourage Poles to have more
children and in the same time improve our internal institutions.
Also we should bring back Poles from former Soviet Union. It's about time they got
back to their homeland after years of exile. After that we can consider accepting
immigrants from: Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and EU countries (with a possible addition
of some Brazilians to improve our football.)
If Poland was to have the same population density as Germany, we would need a population
of about 70 million (that would, more or less, mirror our importance and position in Europe.)

When we accomplish that, we will be able to move on to "Stage 2: Expansion."
Using economic and political means we should draw into our orbit our natural
satellites: Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Czech Republic and Slovakia.
The second circle of allies and vassals would include Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria
and former Yugoslav countries (apart from Slovenia and Croatia, which are German
satellites and we will respect such division of influence on Balkans.)

The Stage 3 - Consolidation, would be only a pure formality and would consist
of building up our military power (including the development of our own nuclear
Force de Frappe, with the cooperation of our French friends and allies.)

It's all possible to do if we get rid of the socialist government of Generalgouverneur Tusk.
If not, then we will only remain what we are now - an EU country of secondary importance,
sinking in debt, exporting millions of our youth and licking arses of both Germany AND Russia.

Polska Zjednoczona Platforma Obywatelska or strong, rich, respected Poland - the choice is yours! :)

Brazilians are overrated!

;)


Ha!
And here your masterplan falls apart! Poles need the french army as much as Germany needed the Italians in WWII! Totally useless...

True.

We only want them to help us develop our own nuclear weapons :)

I'd rather see Poland focus on its defences than spend way too much on its offensive capabilities and back NATO in its futile missions.

Well the reason why I have suggested (among other things) that a European country such as Poland should try to stay homogeneous is to keep the culture of Poland homogenenous so that ethnic squabbles don't come about to undermine the nation, which happened to Poland earlier and is happening to other European countries now.

The United States is a different animal. It was pretty much a given notion that when people from all over the world came to the US they had to INTEGRATE into the US and acquire American CULTURE as soon as possible, ie accept American traditions, speak the language (English), etc. That doesn't mean there weren't ethnic enclaves in the beginning like having little Germanys, little Italys, little Polands, etc. in the US. But the people who made up little Germanys, little Italys, little Polands in the US didn't try to seize American land for their own ethnic interests or try to have Americans cater to them instead of the other way around.

I hate to say it, but the United States will seize to be a power in the world if legal and illegal immigration into the US is unchecked and not stopped. This is because the US CULTURE will fail to be relatively homogenous since all this unchecked immigration will dilute and undermine US CULTURE.

It can not be over emphasized that a HOMOGENEOUS CULTURE is the key to any nation becoming a power. The way to get there is different when comparing European nations to the American nation.

Have you ever heard of Japan? lol

I would rather say the reason for it was that all these groups had one thing in common...european heritage!

They showed that Europeans CAN work well together and build something great and successfull once they leave their little spats and centuries old grudges behind.

Modern Europe can do so too...but for that we need to develop an "european spirit", an european way of life, a european identity.

Poland, Germany and the rest of the european countries don't need more borders between them but less...meaning also mingling with each other.

Any european country alone has no big voice on the world stage whatsoever but together we are powerful!

The US faces the same problems with non-european mass immigration as does Europe!


I adore Japan! :)

I agree with you 100%. The US is a good example of people coming from various European nations working well together once they all acquired the same American culture and traditions. American culture is mainly the American/English language.

Indeed, once people from different European nations put aside their differences and have things in common, like speaking the same language, they are able to produce many European accomplishments. As was and is the case in the making and development of America.

To the degree the EU as an entity contains an atmosphere of EU nations focusing on things in common, ie most of them speak English as an inter-European language, they are all of European genetics, they are proud of being European, etc, this will be the measure that Europeans/the EU will be a force in the world.

This is something that should be strived for and celebrated by Europeans in general.

Well, the European heritage in reality is still divided into many different heritages. Different languages, mentality, different interests in most of cases etc...


"the century old grudges" are still very present (as you see it very present on this forum and not only)


I know, there are many people in Europe who would love those borders back :-)


Agree with that one

The idea about USE (united states of Europe) is great but it will take a long time (if ever) to make it work right.

Well maybe for first generation European Americans but not for us 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Americans, etc.

In the US, people of various European ethnic backgrounds have more in common with each other then their ancestors from their various European nations.

Most Italian American, Irish American, Polish American, German Americans only speak English and not the languages of their ancestors. Therefore they feel more comfortable with each other then actually with people back from their family-ancestral lands. We European Americans also pretty much look like each other, except for the Italian Americans....no just kidding lol. Not only that we European Americans have all our American traditions that bind us together.

Absolutely agree. In the states, we're all Americans, no matter where our ancestors came from.
In Europe, it's still a very long process to become one big nation. I personally don't believe it will ever happen. Too many wars, too much hatred.

(Earlier I was talking about Europeans in Europe, not Americans.)