Why is Poland developing so slowly or in the wrong direction? Who is responsible ?

Most Poles think the same way i do, they only joined the EU because of the benefits 67 billion of them, Poles are independent people by nature we like to build things on our own or achieve something on our own hence the Polish term "Polak potrafi" that's been around since god knows when.

Of 7 million Serbs a half million alone prefers Germany to Serbia...



Well...not the Poles in Poland.

No anti-EU party ever had a chance to get voted into the government...should tell you something!

It seems there is a communication problem between the polish Poles and the plastic Poles. Polish Poles being in their majority very much pro-Europe, pro-EU!

Hardly!

Raging hiper-inflation in 1920's, failed agricultural reform, unfinished industrialization,
huge unemployment, political instability throughout the inter-war period... I could go on.

Sure, we've had our successes too, but to call II Rzeczpospolita self-sufficient is an exagerration.


When was that? Different times, different economy.


Oh, they still come. More of them every year actually.


OK... I'll tell you, but don't tell anyone - it's a secret...

*lowers his voice*

... Poles still leave Poland in order to find work elsewhere, because...

*NOW - pay attention*

A. They CAN.
B. The wages are still better elsewhere.

It took me years and years of research to figure that out, so don't give the secret away, all right?

*rolls eyes*

Brilliant argument. Your once again surpassing yourself.


01.05.2004. Of course not, but who wants to have a f1cking Wirtschaftswunder if he doesn't have NOW enough.
Not always are the 'German criterions' the ones which count the most.


Of course not. But it's like you invite someone to your home for dinner as a guest with all the hospitality, but at the end YOU tell HIM what to eat and what not and maybe let him pay for the meal...Just like EU

Those people left Yugoslavia in 70 is. Your unfortunate policy to take the cheap labor from us, Greeks, Spanish people got you into that mess.

They were that uneducated that they couldn't find a proper job in a SOCIALIST country :)))

They are your citizens now.
Smart ones didn't have to migrate to Germany, they found their way here.
Oh yes, old Yugoslavia had a policy of exporting sociopaths, when somebody commited his first crime he was with his passport escorted to the border to the West.

So, smarter and more educated members of ex Yu nations never inclined to Germany, Switzerland, Austria, just USA and Canada.

I mean they were selecting brighter and highly educated people in last decades.

He:)

No girl...these people come in search for a better life, we lure them because we ARE a functioning, better country. So much for your nationalistic pathos. They give a sh'it about you!

What mess?

So much effort for your comment but still empty like a Coke can after drinking...

Anyway. Explain me please. If they CAN why are they DOING it? Not everything purple there?
Does that imply that current status is not so good?

No, they joined the EU because they thought that they deserved a place at the table. They were (along with Slovenia) one of the leading lights of the Eastern non-EU bloc, and they were the ones who implemented the painful reforms first.

Money didn't even come into it, apart from possibly in the eyes of greedy farmers eyeing up CAP funds.


Really? Why did so many Poles leave Poland then? I don't call leaving "building Poland".


You know someone is certainly Plastic when he doesn't know about any of this!

I suspect that in time, the II RP would have been a well off country, what with the vast agricultural lands and huge industrial potential - but it certainly wasn't in the period that it existed.


Well, there was the government between 2005-2007 and the presidency of Lech Kaczynski. The PiS lead government had the opportunity to withdraw Poland from the EU, and Lech Kaczynski could have refused to sign Lisbon. Neither of them did - why not? Clearly - Poland supports the EU.

I suspect that the Polonia let their own political thinking get in the way - usually because they don't understand what the EU even is.

Of course it would be so much better without the EU Marshall plan....they would all stay at home and enjoy their grande life....

*rolls eyes*



Did you forgot how proud Lech Kaczynski presided over the 6 month of the polish presidentship of the EU?
He battled hard for more polish influence and pathological mistrusted the german influence but not once did he mentioned a Poland outside of everything, all alone by themselves. Even he was to smart for that!

Didn't your Angel recently have some remark about multiculty success in Germany.


Yes, and they worked like idiots to achieve nothing. They are not belonging here, they are not integrated there. They left as uneducated and now they are coming here from time to time even more culturally deprived under wunderbare German life conditions.

I am distancing my self from them without any problem. Traitors fuj ;)

We have a problem with the Turks and Arabs, muslims all of them.
That was the center of the discussion...Serbs or Croats or other Europeans weren't part of that as their cultures is seen as european, muslim not.

Germany is nearing full employment...labor get's short again. I expect alot more Balkan and eastern folks coming, especially as this year the limits get scratched.

So, spout your anti-german stuff as you want, people usually make their choices with their feet if they have to!


Yeah...poor starving Serbs belong to the image of every bigger german town streets...

Oh, don't overestimate the effort I put into it. It comes naturally to me... hardly any effort really.


Well, I thought I made myself clear. They CAN (are allowed/are able/have opportunity/
are not forbidden etc.) make their lives better by settling, most of them temporarily
(I lived in Ireland for 3 years myself), in different parts of EU, so they DO.

It's simple as that really. Nothing more strange about it than an inhabitant of Minnesotta,
moving from his state to live and work in California for some time. Normal thing.
That is the whole idea of Lisbon Treaty and other regulations, aiming at closer integration
of different European states, to allow free movement of EU citizens.


Certainly not. Luckily, we got rid of communists some time ago :)


It does indicate that wages in other parts of EU are still higher, so Poles are moving
there (very often getting loans from Polish banks, buying property in Poland and paying
off the mortgage in 4-5 years, working abroad - a very common WIN-WIN situation.)

Seriously - I'm far from being a blind Euro-enthusiast, but the membership is in the long
run very beneficial for Poland.

You totally don't understand my germanophilia :)))

Must be! :)

Because foreign countries imposed their political systems on Poland that would benefit them, mingling in our affairs purposely weakening Poland to benefit from it. I already wrote this read. How are you a foreigner who's been in Poland a few years, knows what you know only from books you chose to read that were to your liking possibly know about Poland? Listen ur a westerner you have a different mentality from Slavs you see things the way YOU wanna see them, that Poland was always helped by the west you saved us did so much good. BS.

As far as I know only polish citizens are able to vote in polish elections.

If Germany would had really had so much influence no Kaczinsky would had ever come to power but as it was we had to suffer...

;)

Conspirational theories are cute, aren't they..

No but they are that lost, I saw them there and I ran away. They are like zombies.
They sure are not rich. Their kids are uneducated and belong to the bottom of your society.
Thankfully I am in position that I don't have to think with my "feet".
Serbia, you have to love it ;)

I was talking about the Commonwealth then communism, now it's the EU with the nations with most influence manipulating others.

What utter nonsense. Poland has more or less over the years (except since 2007) elected socialist governments - even going back to the time of the II RP, socialism has been the dominant theme of Polish politics.

But tell me - what system was imposed on Poland? Who made the Polish people pass the referendum on EU membership? Indeed - who made the Polish people vote Solidarity in 1989 and not the Communists?

The fact that they elected the PIS/LPR/Samobroona coalition in 2005 says that no-one was interfering with Poland's system. And don't forget - Kaczynski SIGNED LISBON.


What could you possibly know, being a traitor? I mean, it's not me that pledged allegiance to a foreign power!


We could go back to 1991, if you want? Poland needed visas to cross the German border, the country was an economic basketcase (one report I've read suggests that you could buy a Polka for 5USD in Słubice) and the economy was in a horrible state. Those "westerners" actually made life much easier for Poland - especially as Germany more or less strongarmed the rest of the EU into accepting Poland as a member in 2004 when the country wasn't ready.

Next time you insult the "West", just think about who paid to secure the Eastern border.


Indeed, except local and European elections. I wonder, did our proud Polish patriot (who doesn't even posess a Polish ID card, despite allegedly visiting every year or two - so therefore breaking the law of Poland like the traitor that he is) vote in the Presidential election?

Then again BB, he calls Lech Kaczynski a martyr ;)

As a German it seems we have *** influence.
We are good enough to be the pay master but influence nothing. When we would have our way the EU would work alot better.
But as it is and every country guards their independence so greatly...we keep muddling along.
Far away from any "United states of Europe".
So excuse me if your phrases of "some nations manipulating others" only gets a tired smile from me!
If we could only manipulate...

Sorry, but I don't think it's even meant to look like manipulation.
It is very clear and they seem to be honest about the power structure there.
Hierarchy is to the sides involved explained I think.

Congratulations

For the rest of your comment: Tnx for the info. ;-)

Why do you say as a German "we have **** influence"?

Germany is the main power in Europe. Everyone knows that.

It seems to me in general, Germany wants to be fair with its neighbors and is pro-EU/pan European minded. At least much more now then before.

So what kind of things would you like to see Germany manipulate?
It might be good to see happen.

Some say Germany is not assertive enough in world politics based on her past. Relative to Germany's economic status, I would say Germany is kind of shy on the world scene. You have poor third world dictator countries with tiny economies yapping a way on the world scene (N. Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, etc). Their political clout on the world scene seems to far exceed their economic clout/influence.

Nah...it's not about what we want or can do but what others accuse us of...you know the conspirational theories after those we "manipulate" and "influence" everything and their grand ma!

We are an economical giant but a political midget....normally most people like it that way...but now you can hear screams for a "leader"...I wonder why they keep looking in our direction...

Well I guess every individual has his or her opinion.

But I think any fair minded person would see that any country in Europe can't do too much "manipulating" and "influencing" of another country in a negative way, because to a certain degree, European countries (especially neighboring ones) need each other. The days of net zero sum, one country benefiting at the expense of another, I believe are over in Europe. At least I don't think we will be seeing any kind of Molotov-Ribbentrop agreements anytime soon LOL

Any country in Europe, Germany, Poland, France, etc will always be stronger individually, when they work WITH each other and NOT against each other. At least that's how I see it.


LOL

I don't know about that.

I just think Germany needs to assert itself a little more on the world scene. We have seen some of that in the Mid-East and on Iran. Its also good Merkel had the guts to talk about multi-culturalism when it doesn't work. Good.

A very grown up and true observation, I fully agree!


I think we need to grow into that again...it needs time, maybe another generation.

The II RP was on the right way and it is more that could be said about IIIRP!


Nonsense, the propaganda was about how Poland will get richer as western country;s - BS rally but many people were baying it, no wonder as any skeptical opinion have been banned from mainstream mass media !

In referendum about accession 20% voted against Poland joining EU !


Maybe because they do!

80 percent pro....it was fair and square, wasn't it?

There should be a popular vote by the people every 10 years on whether they want to stay in the EU or not.

Do you think it feasable for the United States of America too? Or any other union?

What if the mood fluctuates? In one year the people vote out...everything gets rolling and some years later they want back? What about the treaties and funds? When people vote out funds have to be returned only to be re-returned when they vote in again?

One year no borders another year borders back???

...that way lays madness! ;)