Why is Poland developing so slowly or in the wrong direction? Who is responsible ?

Yep, one academic was amazed when I said there were actually universities in the world which had mere MAs amongst the senior teaching staff. Indeed, Warsaw used to have a regular guest lecturer from Glasgow who was only an MA. Still I realise Poznan, Warsaw. Edinburgh and Glasgow pale into insignificance when faced with some Polish provincial unis.

I see that this thread moved beyond opening post but I'm really curious on what data this statement is based? I would really enjoyed to see some statistics that proves pre WWII Poland superiority because otherwise it looks like someone imagined things...

You had Ukrainians then.This was the reason for growing.

And Jews. Quite seriously, that may have accounted for a lot of international trade and communication, as well as education and scientific advancement.

And Belarussians.What is a country without Belarussians?

You obviously haven't been to the east of Poland. There are substantial communities of BR's there.

This has to be the best place.

The survival instinct brought about through living under communism is so inbred the mentality is hard to shake.

Before WW2 poland was dirt poor - try talking to some old people about a comparison!!

It's based on my knowledge of antebellum Poland economy. I don't have data on hand but comparing achievements and I stress achievements of said Poland with achievements of present polish state there is no doubt in my mind who is a winner !:)


Mentality? What about my mentality? I would say that mentality and demoralization left by communism is a part of the problem but much bigger problem is lack of patriotic elite in charge !


Gee, are you thick ? some people were poor and some where not - the same could be said about nowadays Poland !
My family before the war belonged to middle class, so my old people didn't complain !
Poverty exited in USA in 20 and 30s, there were a lot of paupers in antebellum Poland but also in today Poland !
Pople if you have no idea what is all about - just ask for basics terminology !
Compare doesn't mean compare Poland in 1930 and Poland in 2009, its means comparing Poland and achievements as against other country's in 1930 and then Poland 2009 against country;s in 2009 !

"Patriotic elite" with a look after number one and screw everybody else attitude, something rife under communism.


I dont know your mentality but as a stereotype i understand Polish mentality in general very well, the younger generation are better and shining through. My answer to many of Polands problems has been their exposure to communism, cant think of anything else.

I think your problem is the Patriotic elite, Polish people tend to over-use the term Patriotic,this is a different era, read this book,
constablerobinson.com/?section=books&book=the_superrich_shall_inherit_the_earth_9781849010412_paperback


Poland and eastern europe are traditionally the poor regions of europe ,no? compared to the core states.

no patriotic as responsible and decent...

wishful thinking..
Robert Frost
A man will sometimes devote all his life to the development of one part of his body - the wishbone.

What good would a "patriotic elite" do? Pilsudski's great patriotic leadership caused Poland to be hated by virtually all her neighbours, to be woefully ill equipped for modern warfare and to be in an exceptionally vulnerable position, not helped by futile warmongering against Ukrainians and Lithuanians.

I suppose leading the country to yet more ruin would be the goal of the great Patriotic Elite that you envision, right?

I would really like to see some hard numbers. You know, everybody knows more or less main achivements like Gdynia, currency reform, investitions in heavy industry. But looking at level of literacy, unemployment, massive reliance on agriculture, GPD per capita it doesn't look impressive. What is more corruption is not an modern invention too. For example first head of PKO was accused of malversation (he didn't live to the sentence because someone shot him...).

PS. by numbers I don't mean realtive numbers like: "GDP pre capita equal to Spanish" because Spain wasn't in good shape then either. It would be a pleasure to see some site with comparative graphs and statistics data regarding pre-war and modern Poland.

The problem of Poland is lack of immigration you should be full of Blacks,pakis to do the manual work for you.In order to be a boss you need some employees and a master is nothing without slaves.

The other way is imposing a germanic elite which would undertake the management and smoothen the relaruonships to other germanic countries.Being first class in EU is synonymous to be Germanic and Slavs are not recognized as members of the ruling class.

No.Never ever in the history of Poland a milion died of starvation,like in the core state of Ireland.

Polish agriculture was highly successful before the war, especially in the East: top class soil and cheap labour. Before you snear at exploitation of landless Ukrainian peasants, even now - almost 20 years after independence - Ukrainian agriculture is only developing thanks to foreign investment.

BTW, funny how the Dmowski/Piłsudski debates rumbles on. Dmowski being the hero of the pseudo-thinkers and Piłsudski the hero of the pseudo-righteous. Dmowski's ideas of course won in the end. And Piłsudski was denounced in Poland at the time as a Jew-lover and outside of Poland as a fascist.

Ok, so how this statement comply with thesis about prosperity of average citizen then? I see a contradiction here (though I know that it is not you who made such a thesis). Besides, mind you that before the war there were many Poles living there as a simple peasants too. I happen to know some and the picture they made though sentimental was not full of flowers and roses.

Besides, how 60% of GDP made by agriculture is good in the end of industralization period ?

Ireland was obviously not a core state, like scotland, we were seen as the poorest countries of europe in the 17th and 18th century. The famine/genocide thing in ireland, as well, unnatural disaster but this does not take away from the fact that eastern europe is and was the poor grey end of europe, in relation to the core-states.

Are you talking about the devastation left after the wars and the time they spent under communism?

Hmmmm

So with that understanding in mind, do you think its a coincidence that the Polish Prime Minister Mr. Tusk speaks German? :D

and had relatives in the Wehrmacht...

Did he really?

Actually maybe Tusk speaks German because historically Poles spoke German more then anyone else who was non-German.

My grandparents spoke German and they were not German.

Are you talking about his grandfather?
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Tusk


That probably has a bit more to do with it.

But what's the point? Tusk speaks German. If anything, that would probably be a plus for Poland.

Polands development is stalled because the parties that have been in charge over the last election cycles can't manage to pass any meaningful legislation. That's my vote.

Tusk not only speaks German but he has a Germanic profile as well.Poles cannot understand how much damage a face like Kaczynski does to them since Kaczynski looks completely Slavic and is automatically put to second category neither is he respected by the Germanic presidium.

I agree with you. I think its good Prime Minister Tusk speaks German.

In my opinion, the more Poles that can speak German, or any other language, the better. It never hurts to have an understanding of other countries and cultures, especially those who are your neighbors who you deal with more than others.


You're probably right.

Its been the same story here in the US.

errrr but come to think of it, maybe it might be worse here since bad legislation, like the Obama "Healthcare" plan.....was just passed :(

When governments start pushing platforms that only pander to a certain group and ignore the true problems because they are unpalatable to voters, you've got a problem. Budget issues in both countries are just being overlooked with the solution of "we'll borrow more, and it'll sort itself out.". At least in Poland, there is a bit of plausible deniability in that no party maintains power long enough to actually be responsible for any long term effects.

Despite the flaws of Poland's government, the fact that Poland resisted the world wide recession relatively well, I think speaks well of the frugal nature Poles have in general.

I think there are Poles out there with their "tight with a dollar" mindset which has served them well when their counterparts in other countries were spending like it was one big party.