Decoded talks inside Poland's president's plane are released in Internet

This is a great argument for limited government, especially in areas which are really outwith their sphere of competence. Suggestions must come from those who are the most experienced, not some government official who probably hasn't even read a flying manual.

Lord Acton - "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Oh stop it. There is a lot more to this story then you're saying.

This talk of yours about how the Poles "didn't have a trained navigator up to the task" and how they were "not trained properly" is just your propaganda since this crew landed at this airport before with no problem. Maybe the Russian airport crew and airport should have been more up to the task? I mean Russia knew the airport was only being used for a very sensitive international event. You mean it never dawned on them to do everything humanly possible to upgrade the airport and its airport crew? Starting with not employing criminals to work at the airport?

Most of the reports and opinions on this Polish crash came from those guys at the Russian airport where the plane crashed. And we know how honest these guys are. LOL Like when they were looting the dead Poles on the plane and taking their valuables. Yeah we can trust everything those guys said about this crash LOL

It was garbage right enough, MW. Arkadiusz Protasiuk had extensive flying experience, spoke Russian very well and wasn't suicidal. The Polish authorities are beginning to see holes in the Russian's story.

We need to see a credible and full report as to the things that don't add up in their account.

I agree with you. Perhaps the whole truth may come out eventually?

As you know there is a whole spectrum of opinions on what happened.

There is the politically correct version that Russia put out.... that it was ALL due to this experienced Polish pilot's "pilot error" and that the Russian airport is 100% blameless..... to..... the Russian government deliberately brought down the plane since the people on board were highly critical of the Russian government.

At the end of the day, its hard to say what exactly happened, but I do know something very strange happened, which isn't being told.

Maybe the truth is somewhere in between the extremes of "Pilot Error" and it was a "Russian government plot"? Maybe the truth is more along the lines that the Russian airport crew and their equipment screwed up, making the pilot have a difficult time? I mean we already know about the integrity (or lack of) of some of the people who worked at that airport.

I tend to support the view that the pilot was at fault but, as you said, sth lies inbetween. The Russian ATC have protocols to follow and one of them is compulsory medical checks. The guy on duty at the time didn't get one.

I also don't like the way my blind man analogy was brushed aside. If you have a blind man, in this case the plane in the fog, with a human helper to guide him and he walks down a manhole, who is to blame? The guide, of course, as he is his eyes. They were under a moral obligation to assist more fully.

This is a good point.

I was kind of thinking the same thing.

Like the airport people were thinking "whatever happens happens" while they just went through the motions of their duties. Which have been questioned.

According to German aviation experts, they think the airport was deliberately giving out false data to the data recievers on the airplane. I don't know if it was a deliberate thing, but I could see the airport having flaws with its plane landing data equipment used to aid the plane in.

Oh, absolutely. This is in concordance with the views of Polish aviation experts too. The pilots were reading distorted readings and the TAWS system kicked in way too late. This is the only credible explanation. Russian ATC had to know about this and avert it long before it happened. They kept telling them that they were on the right trajectory, which they blatantly weren't.

To be fair - Smolensk-North is mixed Military-Civilian these days. And the flight was military too - so really, there was no reason for Russia to say no. And of course - if Russia did say no, Lech Kaczynski would have screamed blue murder about Russia denying them.


It's quite clearly obvious that they weren't up to the task - do you have to be reminded just how many hours they had together? I assume you're also well aware of the world of difference between flying into an airport under VFR and then under conditions wholly unsuitable for attempting such a landing?

The navigator was inexperienced on the TU-154, that much is certain. The crew as a team was also inexperienced.


Why? Why should Russia upgrade an airport which has been all but decommissoned, just so a few Poles can fly in once a year? Smolensk-North is really nothing but a runway - it's there for commercial operators to upgrade if they want, but Russia has little to no interest in it.


Why should they? If Poland wanted it, they should have paid for it - it's not Russia's obligation to upgrade the place. They provided the facility - it was Poland's job to use or reject it, and also Poland's job to pay for any upgrading that they might have wanted done for the flights.


It's Russia's job to hire who they want. I mean, it's not like the United States Government has ever hired the wrong people ;)


No, most of the reports now come from the cold hard data - the trasncript which was approved by the Polish authorities. You really do struggle to understand this, don't you?


I'm still waiting for you to tell me what happened to Halina Domeracka's dollars. As I said - stealing from corpses is nothing new for Poles.


But he also had the weight of not only the Air Force chief on his shoulders, but also the President and his cronies. He also took the plane, willingly, below 100m when he had no authorisation or clearance to do so.


The only strange thing that happened was that the Polish Air Force was responsible for putting the Presidential plane into the ground. Let me tell you - do you believe something strange happened at Mirosławiec? What about with Korean Air Flight 801? or what about KLM Flight 823? We could go on.


We're waiting for the report to tell us exactly what the air traffic controller could see. It could be that they had only a very, very basic radar - after all, just take a look at the state of Ukraine to see how things are operating using antique equipment!


But what data was this? The airport wasn't equipped with such devices - I mean, you're welcome to show me where in the transcript it shows that they were using such technology.

Perhaps you might want to look back at what happened on the ground for Warsaw as to why this accident happened. You do know that the Poles not only failed to request a navigator, but also failed to provide weather reports?

What's your most surprising in the crash near Smolensk ?

Col. . Stefan Gruszczyk : That did not talk about how bad the presidential flight was organized machine . I do not mean to provide aerodromes, because they are always included in the flight plan .

Organizer flight [ in this case, Office of the President ] , command 36 Regiment and foremost commander of the crew must before the start to know what to do at the destination airport if conditions do not allow for landing . Do you go back to Warsaw - you can take the right amount of fuel. Do you fly to the aerodrome where the relevant departments will be waiting for the delegation . Such a plan should exist especially in the case of flight with the president and the delegation , which await - as in Katyn - hundreds of people . It can not be that the crew is flying without any agreements and frantically thought what to do ..

Perhaps you might want to read this.

This transcript is ACCORDING to RUSSIA. Honestly do you think Russia would have included any information that would have incriminated itself?

Would Russia ever have provided any transcripts or information on those Russian airport "security" guards who looted the dead Poles in the crashed plane if the Poles did not have evidence that that's what they did?

Also even in the last 4 paragraphs of this Polish link you give, it said that what the airport TOWER said to the pilot was very important. It sayed the words the Russian tower sayed were vague. Small changes in pronuciation or grammar by the Russian tower could have made a world of difference in their communication to the Polish crew.

As that Polish link said, its like the difference in the meaning of "good" when using the phrases "good day" or "goodbye".

Its been claimed that the Russian airtower words of "don't land" could easily have been construed as "conditional landing" by just a minor change of the inflection of the Russian syllables or words used.

And NO most Poles did not approve of these transcripts. Especially when Russia is now refusing to hand back the black boxes.

But tell me why the German aviation experts have cast doubt on the Russian tower? Why would the do that?

Delph, I cannot say this any more clearly. He didn't take the plane knowingly under 100m. He didn't know the true position of the plane and wasn't alerted by ATC.

Russia is refusing to hand back the black boxes? NATO secrets are being held :)

No, it's according to Poland. Poland released the transcript, which means that the Polish state apparatus (which includes many appointees of Lech Kaczynski) approves of it as being authentic. As I've told you many times before - either these people are lying (and this includes the very elite of Polish society, many of whom are no supporters of the government) - or the transcript must be genuine. There's no middle ground.

But to accuse the very highest people in Poland of lying is a very, very serious allegation.


How would Russia ever know that happened, unless the Poles reported it? It's called cooperation - Poland detected the crime, Russia dealt with it. Problem solved.

Or perhaps you might want to tell me how the Poles dealt with the theft of Halina Domeracka's dollars. Oh, that's right - they didn't.


Sure, it could. But we already know that there was nothing in the transcript over the last few minutes which could cause trouble - they were cleared to 100m and no more. They were not cleared for landing, and there is nothing in the CVR to suggest that they had acquired a visual fix on the runway - therefore they should have gone around.


Can't comment, I don't speak Russian. But what I do know is that a conditional landing is just that, a conditional landing. However, they had no conditions for landing - nowhere in that ATC transcript is there any mention whatsoever of being cleared to land. This doesn't detract from the simple fact that they were told that Smolensk-North couldn't accept them - yet they still attempted a landing.


So - where was this formal request for the black boxes? I don't recall anyone asking for them back. You'll also be well aware that under the relevant international conventions, the investigation is conducted in the country where the accident took place - what purpose would the black boxes have, especially when all the other pieces are sitting in Russia?

The black box issue is a red herring, especially when the Polish military elite were present in Moscow to witness the opening and decoding of the boxes.

I'll also remind you that you nor me know what was contained within the Polish "3rd" box - which was given to Poland to be decoded. Russia had no way of decoding the box, it was a Polish military piece of kit - and no-one has said about any contradiction in the transcript.


Because so far, we don't know exactly what was contained at Smolensk-North. There is a very real possibility that they were operating with very basic equipment - the airport was largely stripped at the end of last year when the military base was decommissioned. These same "Experts" seem to believe that there was some sort of precision landing device used at Smolensk-North - but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that it was.

The crucial issue here is this - they were cleared to 100m. No more. Regardless of what ATC said or did, if they had stayed at 100m, be it barometric or radar - they would have been fine. Even if 100m was measured at the deepest point in the ravine, they still would have had about 30-40m to play with - but instead, they went below it. There's your cause of the crash. Nothing more.

I see the conspiracy theorists STILL haven't picked up on the discrepancy on the transcript yet. It wasn't a factor in the crash, but it's still interesting to note.


Seanus, the captain heard (we assume - he may have gone deaf momentarily!) the call of 90m, 80m, 70m and so on. The second the plane went below 100m, he should have reacted - we know that the TU-154M turns off the autopilot as soon as the control mechanisms are manipulated. But they didn't turn off the autopilot instantly - which means he willingly went below 100m.

ATC alerted him as soon as it was obvious - hence the horizon command.

One thing that you might want to consider - if the data available has been interpreted right, then the pilots got it wrong in a 20 second window. Given the high stress that they were under to land the plane (especially since the Yak managed) - are you really, really shocked that they crashed?

However, if there's one good thing out of all of this - it seems that the Polish Air Force has been stripped of their VIP flying duties!

Lech Kaczynski appointed many many appointees. So you think every single one of them had absolute loyalty to Kaczynski? Or they couldn't have a change of heart expecially considering all the pressure on them to release something? No these people may not be lying, they just may want to "get the whole thing over with" and be the ones responsible for bettering relations with Russia, which they could not do if they keep questioning Russia (but 64% of Poles have serious questions on how their government is handling this).

Also if the Polish government ACKNOWLEDGE that the Russians did something wrong, then that puts tremendous pressure on them to do something against Russia. Maybe they don't want to go through all that? They generally want Raproachment with Russia anyway. I do to as someone of Polish ancestry, but the tough questions on this issue must first be exhausted first.

There are Russian dissidents who kind of see things the way as I do. They think the Polish government is purposely looking the other way for pro-Russia political reasons.

blogs.wsj.com/new-europe/2010/05/25/russian-dissidents-say-pola nd-naive-on-plane-crash-investigation/

Also the Polish army has been doing an independent investigation of this.

Yup, all that sounds like something that Jaroslaw would do. Letting Russia slide on that whole "killing his brother on the way to Katyn" thing.

The Polish military prosecutors office is part of the joint investigation.

Yup that sounds like something you would say.

Jaroslaw Kaczynski IS not letting anyone slide and he IS questioning the Russian probe of the Polish Crash

english.ruvr.ru/2010/06/02/8930806.html

Yes the Polish military has been part of the joint investigation and many of them are starting to question it. But they weren't going to do this early on in the investigation since they wanted to give the Russian investigators a chance.

Prove it, because it's not on RFERL. Nor is it on TV, any websites here, or any of the dailys. But I'm guessing they're in on it too?


Got any links on that, or is that your opinion?

Kaczynski appointed people based on loyalty, not on ability. I can't believe that these same people would suddenly abandon their loyalty in the interests of better relations with Russia.


But these very same people were appointed for being the kind of people that supported the concept of the IV RP - which includes NO COMPROMISE WITH RUSSIA and similar hard line attitudes. If something was seriously dodgy, they would be screaming from the rooftops.


So what about the people outside of the Polish Government who have nothing to lose because they have no power to put pressure on Russia? You know - Lech's appointees. They can scream to their hearts content about it - yet none of them are. Why?


Of course the Russian dissidents would think that - they always look for an excuse to bash Putin. Don't you think that they might be manipulating Poles for their own political purposes? I mean - look at the amount of opposition in Russia who then turned out to be every bit as bad. Yeltsin, anyone? The hero who stood on the tank to defend the Russian White House then attacked the very same building two years later. That's opposition for you, Russian style.


Of course. It's the report that I await with great interest, because they aren't bound to say exactly the same as the Russian report. The Russian report is really of no interest to me - it's what the Poles have to say that I want to know.


Really? I can't find any reference to it, apart from on two Russian State broadcaster websites - both of whom would have good reasons not to want to see Jarek elected. Doesn't surprise me that they might be posting rubbish about him. Any articles from a reasonably credible Polish source? I can certainly say that he hasn't been questioning Russia in Poland.


Many? Again - prove it. As far as has been reported - the Polish side of things are happy with how things are going. I'd expect reports on TVP or Polskie Radio about these doubts - but so far - nothing. Why?


Of course, TVP - well known for being PO supporters, are participating in a cover up.

Then again convex, what do we know, we only live here!

How do you know about EACH of these people who you say have a "NO COMPROMISE WITH RUSSIA" attitude? Did you interview each of them?

Also Poles ARE speaking out against this investigation. 64% of Poles think something is suspicious about how their government is handling this investigation WITH Russia. I just told you about how Jaroslaw Kaczynski is speaking out against the Russian probe. Are you denying that he is?

Many Poles are supicious about this Russian explanation of "pilot error" as the WHOLE cause of everything.

Authorities have so far failed to provide credible answers to the many unanswered questions that have emerged.

"Authorities as well as the controlled mainstream media were quick to blame the crash on pilot error and fog.

In addition, the rumor that Kaczynski had pressured the pilot to land and so caused the crash spread within hours in the mainstream media and was repeated without criticism even in some blogs belonging to the alternative media.

But so many new facts and evidence have emerged CONTRADICTING government accounts that officials have been forced to retract statements.

Doubts are also growing about the DNA analysis performed by labs in Russia to identify the victims, following a number of contradictory statements made by authorities."

"Forums and message board of Polish newspapers such as "Gazeta Wyborcza", "Rzeczpospolita" and "Dziennik" indicate that the majority of Polish people, in the meantime, REJECT the official account of the plane crash due to pilot error."

infiniteunknown.net/2010/04/27/polish-opposition-party-demands-international-investigation-into-plane-crash/

Do you actually know anything about Polish politics?

Prawo i Sprawiedliwosc are fundamentally anti-communism and believe in complete lustration. These people are not interested in any sort of "compromise" with Russia - they see Russia clearly as the enemy. Whether they're right or wrong is irrelevant - the point is that PiS voters see Russia as the enemy. Given that all politics is sycophantic to a degree, and that Lech Kaczynski was well known to surround himself with yes-men (witness the complete destruction of public television!) - do you really need to interview every single person to know that his appointees were politically loyal and reliable? And the Kaczynski twins simply weren't interested in dialogue and communication with Russia.


Really? Where are they, apart from in fringe media? I'm not reading anything in any credible newspaper or seeing anything on TV about it.


Source? That 64% figure reeks of "plucked out of thin air" - especially as I don't know anyone personally who thinks that there's a conspiracy. And - well - I actually live here.


I'm asking you to provide a source which is credible - ie, not a Russian State-controlled media source, but rather a Polish source. Remember, Jarek is no fan of Russia, and Russia doesn't particularly like him either - so it's in their interest to smear him on their websites.


Source? And please, not "Nasz Dziennik".


Why should they? The investigation is ongoing. Do we really need ANSWERS NOW, especially in the middle of a Presidential election campaign? I'm happy to wait to make sure that the answers are correct, rather than risking another screw up by the Polish government when it comes to false accusations.


Perhaps because the black boxes, opened and checked in the presence of the Polish authorities, confirmed this?


Do you have any evidence to suggest that he didn't? Kaczynski had history for doing it - so it's a fair assumption to make that he may have done it again.


It's called "new evidence is coming to light" - they're not forced to retract statements, they're simply updating people on what they know. For instance - after the 7/7 bombings, it was reported in the first hours as a series of power failures across the network. It only became apparent about 2 hours afterwards that it was actually terrorist attacks. Happens all the time with breaking news!


Doubts are growing where, exactly?


Oh, come on. Cranks inhabit intenet message boards, it's a widely observed phenomenon. Given that there's no way of prohibiting multiple accounts, it's very easy for a conspiracy theorist to simply register 10 names, all agreeing with each other.

Anyway, are you telling me that you trust random internet message boards over the highly trained professionals involved in the investigation? If so - it's time to remove the tin foil hat!

By the way -from your link.


Turned off? The transcripts say otherwise. Again - are they genuine, or are the Polish elite lying about the murder of their own democratically elected President?

Oh - and the source for that article? Source: KAvkaz Center. The same place that allegedly belongs to Chechen rebels - and is quite possibly operated by the FSB to discredit them. In short - not a credible source whatsoever.

You know, I admire the way that you keep trying to prove a conspiracy - but when your sources all lead back to the one highly uncredible Kavkaz Center - really, you need to try harder!

Now - when are you finally going to pick up on the discrepancy?

Delph: I admire you. And I'm glad somebody has the energy to hold up a torch for aviation community.

You say these guys investigating are HIGHLY TRAINED PROFESSIONALS??? LOL!!!! You mean like those Russians who looted the dead Poles on the crashed plane????

Yeah those former NKVD, KGB types are just the kind of highly trained Russian professionals we want on this investigation LOL

Also how convenient of you to cast aspersions on the many people on those Polish newspaper internet message boards as "cranks" who are "registering multiple accounts" just because they are questioning this Polish crash and DISAGREE with your Pro-Russia viewpoint.

But I'm sure they would have a lot of legitimacy with you if they were arguing for the Pro-Russian viewpoint on this matter that this crash was ALL the fault of the Polish crew and Russia was blameless! If that was the case, you would be here jumping up and down referencing these so called cranks and saying "This is what most Poles are saying about this! LOL


The source of the report that the device warning the pilot of obstacles ahead being turned off was a Russian source. So why do you say the Polish elite were saying this....unless of course they are afraid of Russia and just repeating what Russian authorities say? So it looks like the Russian transcripts have a dicrepancy with the Russian Interfax and their Russian sources. Is this the discrepancy you're talking about?

And what's wrong with the KavKaz center? They had good information on how the Russian government set up its invasion of Georgia.

Are any of these news sources OK with you?

Poland Sees Long Crash Probe
Officials CONTEST Russian Suggestion That Pilot Error Was to Blame; Captain Was 'Cool-Headed' and Experienced

June 15 Prof. Poteat comments on Polish plane crash

iwp.edu/news_publications/detail/prof-poteat-comments-on-polish-plane-crash-in-tygodnik-solidarnosc

Jaroslaw Kaczynski does not trust Russian authorities

Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski said Tuesday that the Polish side withdrew from the Russian navigator on the flight to Smolensk, because the Russian side "did not want or could not" make it available.

Anyone still reading this? I can't. I give up.

Or those that were alleged to have been drunk at ATC? LOL. They skipped their compulsory medical.

Everyone can have a MLOR but Protasiuk was a calm guy and one that knew his trade. If amateurs here are commenting that 100m is the threshold then he for sure would have known. It is quite clear to me that distorted readings were being fed to him. He had landed Tusk just 3 days earlier.

When is the next instalment of 'data'? Those transcripts were awful and raised more questions than they answered.

Yet again, you're questioning and insulting the integrity of the Polish professionals involved with this investigation. Yet - you know nothing about aviation and don't even live in Poland!


Who said I was pro-Russia? You might notice that I'm relying on the Polish version of events. And yes, they're cranks - then again, if you're relying on them to tell you about the state of mind of Poles, then it's no surprise that you're badly misinformed.


They wouldn't have any legitimacy regardless because the vast majority are uneducated when it comes to aviation. I haven't even bothered to read the forums (apart from the specialist aviation forums) about this - why bother, when they're mostly full of uneducated drivel?


From what I gather, there's a good chance that many of these Russian "sources" were fabricated by the Russian and Polish media in an attempt to boost sales/webpage views. For a start - there's the mysterious interview with the controller after the accident, which only came from one source and could easily have been a complete fabrication - especially as certain aspects of the interview contradicted the transcript. I'll wait for the Polish report to tell me what was and what wasn't turned off - but we do know for certain that the TAWS was alive.


Nope, that's not the one. I'm not surprised there are discrepancies though - media always jumps to conclusions and fabricates things.


Everything is wrong with them - for a start, if they're genuine (and I have my doubts) - then they are run by Muslim fundamentalists who believe in jihad - do you really trust those people? Seriously? But this is Russia we're talking about - it is perfectly believable that they could be a disinformation source designed to discredit the Chechen cause. Hard to say - and anyway, they don't publish any information about who they are.


First link - they make it clear that they shouldn't jump to conclusions. Which is correct - but it doesn't mean that they're still contesting it, the link is two months old.


No good, there's quite a few factual mistakes within the text, particularly concerning the precision landing system.


No - he doesn't completely trust them. Nothing new there! But he's not saying that he doesn't trust them, either. Probably, he's operating on the old doctrine of "Trust, but verify". You need to tone down the sensationalism!


There is an issue with this - because other people involved with the delegation seem to suggest that it was the Polish side at fault. Russia hasn't commented one way or another, and we all know how thick headed Poles can be when it comes to this sort of thing. Hard to judge really - I'll wait for the Polish report on this issue. Either way, if they felt they needed a Russian navigator and one wasn't supplied, then they shouldn't have taken the risk of landing.


What, you mean you don't trust random news "sources" over the Polish military elite?

That's the whole point. There are many questions about at least SOME of the so called Polish professionals jointly working with the Russians. I don't live in Poland but I have relatives and friends there who are suspicious and frankly they have even stronger opinions. They're the ones who have gone as far as saying that people should watch that one powerful video tape on the Polish crash aftermath. But of course you would dismiss that. Afterall you have your Kremlin agenda you must follow.


That's just your propagandist opinion. But if these "cranks" supported your version, then you would be saying how smart and honest they are etc.

The only thing you are relying on is your agenda of Russia is perfect and ALL the fault is with the Polish side.

Dude you're pro-Russia if not Russian yourself. Why are you bending over backwards and tripping all over yourself to defend the politically correct Russian version of events? You are so dogmatic about this issue. If I was as dogmatic as you in my questioning of Russia I could even come up with even stronger opinions against the "pilot error" explanation. But you want allow even ONE IOTA of criticism or questioning of the politically correct explanation and can't see the big picture here. Any time ANYTHING is presented to counter the "pilot error" explanation you jump all over the sources and start making major reaches to discredit them.

MediaWatch:
But I'm sure they would have a lot of legitimacy with you if they were arguing for the Pro-Russian viewpoint on this matter that this crash was ALL the fault of the Polish crew and Russia was blameless! If that was the case, you would be here jumping up and down referencing these so called cranks and saying "This is what most Poles are saying about this! LOL


LOL Yes more rhetoric from you. Yes Yes you have all the answers on this and anybody who has a viewpoint countering yours you just arbitrarily dismiss as "uneducated" etc. That's just propaganda rhetoric.

MediaWatch:
The source of the report that the device warning the pilot of obstacles ahead being turned off was a Russian source. So why do you say the Polish elite were saying this....unless of course they are afraid of Russia and just repeating what Russian authorities say?


Well of course! Any kind of information that goes against your Kremlin agenda "COULD easily been a complete fabrication" But if it supported your agenda then the source would have been "reliable" according to you.

Also haven't you figured out by now that most of the Polish reporting was taken by what the Russians were saying? You think these Poles working with the Russians aren't afraid? They see what happens to people who the Kremlin doesn't like LOL Like in Ukraine, Georgia, the Russian reporters in Moscow, in England, in the Polish plane etc.

MediaWatch:
So it looks like the Russian transcripts have a dicrepancy with the Russian Interfax and their Russian sources. Is this the discrepancy you're talking about?


There you go playing games. "You say not this one" and are still playing this childish little game about some so called disrecpancy about this whole thing. I guess these little games you play should be all the more reason to trust the validity of what you say LOL

MediaWatch:
And what's wrong with the KavKaz center? They had good information on how the Russian government set up its invasion of Georgia.


Its interesting how you seem SO familiar with kavkaz. Most Poles couldn't care a less about Kavkaz or whatever you call them. But most nationalist Russians KNOW about kakvaz. HMMMMMMMM


Yes yes it always the Polish sides' fault and with all the information coming out on this tragedy for some reason the Russians are as clean as can be. There have been questions of the Russians who operated the airport at issue and when it came out that some of the Russians (that we know of) at the airport looted the dead Poles on the plane, that means nothing to you. Nope Russia is 100% perfect blameless on this whole issue. No Russian thickheads according to you not even the Russians who looted the dead Poles. That didn't even raise an eyebrow with you. That's very strange for somebody who is Polish.

I think Mediawatch is old Olga. Still only hearing what he/she wants to hear. Waste of time.

airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/121688/1/ some interesting opinions here :)

Really? As you obviously know, Poland has all but purged the armed forces of most of the Russian-trained forces. That's why the TU-154M was being flown by an inexperienced crew, and is also why they had no simulator time whatsoever.

Anyway, they have opinions, not facts. I particularly love the way that they accuse people of being a cover up, despite not having any evidence whatsoever.

The video tape? You mean the one where people saw and heard what they wanted to hear, not what was actually on the tape? I'll remind you that in part of that tape, a pilot is seen in the "cockpit". Of course, as an aviation expert as you are, you already know that it was actually an engine - "LOL".

Anyway, what Kremlin agenda? I'm trusting the Poles to get their side of the investigation right. Russia may have something to gain in not telling the full story, but Poland? I trust the elite of this country to get it right - as does Jarek, from the sounds of things.

No, I'd be saying that they trust the Polish investigation - like any sensible person would. Unless of course, you suggest that the Polish investigation is being manipulated by the Kremlin - which again, is a very serious allegation to make.


Who attempted to land the plane? That's right, Polish pilots did. Who crashed the plane? Russia? Nope, Polish pilots. Heck - who even began landing at Smolensk-North despite being told that they couldn't accept them there? That's right, Polish pilots were also responsible!

I'm supporting the Polish view of things - which is that it appears to be pilot error. I'd actually like to hear your opinion of why it wasn't pilot error - but bearing in mind that you keep making factual mistakes constantly, it'll be a pleasure to point out your lack of knowledge about aviation. But to be fair - it may not be pilot error, but navigator error. Wouldn't be a huge surprise, given his lack of experience!

What, you think that an interview, published in one Russian news outlet is "reliable"? I certainly don't, regardless of what opinion it has. As I've said - it appears that the interview could be a fabrication due to the inconsistencies with the CVR - you know, the transcript that the Polish State has approved. Again - either the CVR transcript is accurate, or you're accusing the Polish investigators of lying.

Wow. You really are out of touch with reality over there in America if you believe that Poles are actually afraid of Russians these days. Tell you what - why don't you ask your Polish relatives and friends if they're afraid of Russia.

So now you're saying that the Polish investigation is afraid of Russia? That's the best line yet - you've effectively just accused the Polish elite (remember, some of whom are Lech's appointees) of being cowards.


Actually, I got interested in them after they published the nonsense about the guy being killed in Ukraine. Did some research, including on their own site - and it's safe to say that they are murky at least. Even if they are genuine Chechen separatists, who the hell trusts people interested in jihad?

Why should it raise an eyebrow? As I've asked you repeatedly - what happened to Halina's dollars? Who stole from her corpse? I find it rather amusing that you can't bring yourself to admit that stealing from corpses is hardly anything new for Poles. Heck, even killing people for their body organs is nothing new to Poles!

the epic fail. :)

As my grandmother said: if Russians finally admitted causing the crash, this would end all
those conspiracy theories!

;)

I didn't know an engine had a head and elbows and could put his hand on the back of his neck. It seemed like you saw what you wanted to see. And he wasn't in the cockpit.

MediaWatch:
That's just your propagandist opinion. But if these "cranks" supported your version, then you would be saying how smart and honest they are etc.

So you think the notion of the Tusk government of wanting Raproachment with Russia doesn't play any role in dismissing tough questions about this crash?

MediaWatch:
The only thing you are relying on is your agenda of Russia is perfect and ALL the fault is with the Polish side.

That's such a callous thing to say. Its hard to believe you're even Polish for saying these things. Which I have doubts about.

We still don't know for sure that this Russian tower warned them. You keep going by what Russia and the Russian transcript said. Even your Polish link YOU provided said that the words the Russian tower guy used could have been easily misconstrued to mean different things.

Also when you read the Russian transcript of what the Polish pilot and crew said, it seemed like they spoke in BROKEN Polish. I didn't know these educated guys spoke their own language so poorly.

MediaWatch:
Dude you're pro-Russia if not Russian yourself. Why are you bending over backwards and tripping all over yourself to defend the politically correct Russian version of events? You are so dogmatic about this issue. If I was as dogmatic as you in my questioning of Russia I could even come up with even stronger opinions against the "pilot error" explanation. But you want allow even ONE IOTA of criticism or questioning of the politically correct explanation and can't see the big picture here. Any time ANYTHING is presented to counter the "pilot error" explanation you jump all over the sources and start making major reaches to discredit them.

The "pilot error" explanation was the explanation give of the crash within HOURS of the plane crash. It was what the Russians kept repeating over and over and over to get into the world media to make them blameless.

Now many Poles in Poland thought it was very odd for the Russians to say this with such certainty when the explanations of these plane crashes take weeks if not months to determine. There were Poles who felt uncomfortable about this. Now if you're going to tell me that you are in Poland and that the Poles had no problem with this hasty "pilot error" explanation from Russia then you are definitely a fraudulent Pole.

MediaWatch:
Well of course! Any kind of information that goes against your Kremlin agenda "COULD easily been a complete fabrication" But if it supported your agenda then the source would have been "reliable" according to you.

So Russian news outlets are going to criticize their own country? You questioned the Russian news sources I used to show that Kaczyinski didn't totally trust the Russian authorities investigating this crash. You steadfastly denied these sources and what Kaczyinski said, but then later on changed your mind. So maybe these sources are actually reliable afterall?

You say the "Polish State" approved the Russian transcript? Really? Who exactly? You mean that same "thickheaded" Polish state you talked about? You know. Like you say "those Poles can be thickheaded". Maybe it was the "thickheaded Polish statesmen who did that"?

MediaWatch:
Also haven't you figured out by now that most of the Polish reporting was taken by what the Russians were saying? You think these Poles working with the Russians aren't afraid? They see what happens to people who the Kremlin doesn't like LOL Like in Ukraine, Georgia, the Russian reporters in Moscow, in England, in the Polish plane etc.

Well I did make those comments with an LOL if you recall. So I only half meant them. But you would have to be naive to think there is no pressure on the Tusk government to be reluctant to ask too many tough questions on this crash. You don't think so? Most likely the whole Raproachment thing with Russia is weighing on his mind. You deny this?

MediaWatch:
Its interesting how you seem SO familiar with kavkaz. Most Poles couldn't care a less about Kavkaz or whatever you call them. But most nationalist Russians KNOW about kakvaz. HMMMMMMMM

What guy being killed in Ukraine? Most Poles don't know anything about that Kavkaz website. But for some reason YOU do. So do most nationalist Russians. Surprise surprise LOL

MediaWatch:
Yes yes it always the Polish sides' fault and with all the information coming out on this tragedy for some reason the Russians are as clean as can be. There have been questions of the Russians who operated the airport at issue and when it came out that some of the Russians (that we know of) at the airport looted the dead Poles on the plane, that means nothing to you. Nope Russia is 100% perfect blameless on this whole issue. No Russian thickheads according to you not even the Russians who looted the dead Poles. That didn't even raise an eyebrow with you. That's very strange for somebody who is Polish.

If you think I am going to defend Polish criminality you are crazy. I have already condemned Polish criminals on several occasions. And for things worse then stealing from dead bodies. But if you makes you feel better, naturally I condemn the Polish criminality that you refer to here with criminal Poles looting this Halina.

Yes we all know every nation has their criminals.

But you would think the Russians KNOWING the extreme sensitivity and international implications of this plane crash, at the very least, would have their most HONEST people providing security to this Polish crash site. But that's just fine with you. Why when you first heard that, like any regular person, you start looking for bad behavior elsewhere to JUSTIFY Russian bad behavior. And at a Polish crash site NEAR KATYN of all places!!!

I find it very interesting in your conversations, that when their is criticism of Russians, like of those Russian thugs who looted those dead Poles, who RIGHTFULLY deserved criticism, you feel this INSTINCTIVE need to defend them. You basically angrily tell everyone in so many words that people should NOT generalize negatively about Russians because of what some bad Russians do. On other occasions, you keep talking about how people shouldn't generalize negative things about the Russians and their part in the Soviet Union (even though the Soviet Union was controlled from MOSCOW). OK that's fine. I can respect your opinion that people shouldn't generalize negative things about the Russians. Fair enough.

But what I find very interesting is how you (an alleged Pole) do the OPPOSITE with Polish people. You throw around negative generalizations about Poles all the time. You make comments about Poles like "you know how thickheaded those Poles are" NOW you make another generalization by saying "HECK EVEN KILLING PEOPLE FOR THEIR BODY ORGANS IS NOTHING NEW TO POLES" Really Poles are doing this frequently??? Would you say that about the RUSSIANS?????

Truth be told, in the last hundred years, Russians have killed many more people (including their own) then Poles ever have.

I find it interesting how, even outside this topic, your main concern is promoting/defending Russia. You have barely even said anything positive about Poles in most of your conversations. And when you do talk about Poles you disparage them.

No you have no agenda here in this forum. LOL