Decoded talks inside Poland's president's plane are released in Internet

He is not Polish, MW. He seems to be defending only one side though.

Just waiting for a hint of something done on the Russian side that was wrong or incorrect up until the moment of the impact. If you don't believe the outcome of the joint investigation, there really isn't anything sensible to discuss.

Apparently the Yak also broke the rules coming in. I really hope that the Polish Airforce takes action and remedies some of the issues that they've been having with regards to aviation safety. Hopefully we won't have to see things like this again.

agree.

another point, why would the tower tell them to not land /say they told them
when autopilot was on? who were they talking to?

why the heck was autopilot on during approach??

I have never been in a plane, but I know one thing, someone should be at the
wheel if your that close to landing.

Might want to let the Yak crew know that. Truth is, Polish AF have some serious safety issues.

Oh man I could give you some stories. Just last week a PAF Mi2 wandered over an airfield close to Wroclaw without making any radio calls at pattern altitude...while planes were in the pattern! Sorry, that is just unacceptable.

Stop giving credit for no reason. Hold them to account. There are some great pilots, but their safety culture sucks.

I never gave credit, I QUESTION .................

and to me Russia doesnt give a whole lots of trust, why should any one else?

The boxes should have been sent to a alternate country for investigation
that way people wouldnt question russia, and it would /could have shown
their good standing by letting someone else investigate if they had nothing to hide!!

In that case there IS someone (even two) at the wheel, Patrycja. They just choose to land on autopilot. It happened to me last Monday; the pilot of my plane decided to land on autopilot on EHEH. Not a very comfortable landing, I must say.

But it wasn't that the pilot and co-pilot were sitting in the back with the passengers having a cupper.


And I am going to land there today around 1525 ... thanks for the "comforting words" ... ;).

Convex, safety culture?? Why even talk of it given their natural primal instinct for self preservation? He wasn't suicidal, how many times do I have to make that point? How stupid can some proponents of the official line be? The guy who did that plane documentary on 9/11 (Dave Von Klein??) said it very well. Pure denial results in a defending of a position to the hilt, regardless of merit or logic.

However, I am prepared to say that there is callous disregard in some. Just look at road accidents here in Poland. It's like they have a subconscious wish to die.

Jesus Christ, how much have you drank today? Do you think that every plane that flies into the ground is due to suicidal pilots? The Yak landed earlier without being cleared to land (they shouldn't fly again, ever). The CASA pilots flew into the ground. The Mi2 flew through the pattern with planes in it...without saying a word.

Were all those crews suicidal, or did they bend or break the rules?

The orange juice must be strong in Poland ;) Maybe you could say sth of pilot bravado, convex, as sorry, I just can't get my head round what some pilots do. Really!

The point is that aversion and also options were available.

It happens, people break rules. It's not bravado, it's the weight of completing the mission interfering with the decision making process. That and some instances of just raw sloppiness. None of those pilots wanted to die (even the Mi2 pilots), but they all did something reckless. The problem is, if a crew puts a plane down in bad weather, they're heroes. If they divert, they're a bad crew that can't complete the mission. When was the last time on a commercial airliner that you said, thank god we can hold for another hour? Or how about, thank god we have to return to the airport? Thank god ticket prices have gone up. You don't hear that very often.

Of course - there is one theory that suggests that the instinct was alive and well - just that they made a mistake and by the time the Captain realised (after hearing 90, 80) - it was too late. There is certainly merit to this - the captain, under a massive amount of stress, heard "100 metres" three times - enough to make him think that the plane had levelled off. Of course, it hadn't - they were going over the ravine, and by the time they heard 90, 80 - it was too late.

We know that the Tupolev would have lost 40m or so in height before ascending - so even if they pulled up at somewhere about 85m, it still wouldn't have been enough to clear the trees at the top of the ravine.

We'll know soon enough when they publish the GPS track.

That's the point. That plane descends much faster than normal. Somehow they didn't know that.

Per the book, they're not even supposed to descend below 120m, regardless of the published minimums. Considering that the Tu needs a while to stop its descent, they should have reacted at 150m, on the altimeter, not the radar altimeter (looking to be what was used for altitude information). They bent the rules (just a wee bit), were distracted looking for the field, combined it with what is looking like a procedural mistake, and ended up in the trees.

Hell, the Yak landed without even being cleared to land. That is ridiculous.

Then surely the issue of vicarious liability should arise. What do you say to that, convex? The duty of care is very high and they breached it.

Absolutely, but, you have to ask why those egregious violations are happening. They aren't isolated issues.

The USAF has done a good job addressing and investigating all incidents and mishaps with the establishment of the safety center. Lots of interaction there in all areas, and most importantly, they're independent. Would be a good idea for the PAF.

It's interesting that Hamby, the CEO of the company behind TAWS in Tucson (Arizona), refused to comment. He likely didn't want to become embroiled in a bitter dispute.

More support for the official line would be needless Polish bravado. I see it in many places and it's pretty humorous. Deadly in this case.

And unfortunately, it shows the mentality of the Poles towards Russians - to hell what they think, we're going in anyway. Why they even started the descent when Smolensk-North told them that they couldn't accept them is beyond me!


Wise not to attempt to get involved in an ongoing investigation.


Well - they were too high at the outer beacon, so descending faster than normal isn't entirely wrong. If you look at the flight path that someone has suggested, they were fine until the 100m point.

The crucial thing here is that they had seconds to correct their mistake - when you think about it like that, it becomes much easier to accept human error.

I wonder if the crew of Air Force One would attempt a landing in such circumstances?

Yeah we see your mentality. You are so quick to make negative generalizations about Poles but agonize when anyone makes the slightest negative generalization about Russians. Even on topics other then this crash tragedy.

No surprise you keep going by the "pilot error" explanation as gospel that the RUSSIAN government reported within hours of the crash in which anyone knows was way too premature.

MW, that's true. You cannot defend a line to the hilt without having the evidence to do so. That's what is called make believe.

I hope you have other outlets for your paranoia, other than this forum. Everytime we try to have a discussion about the actual crash, you feel the need to drown us with your anti-russian agenda. Can you stop already?

MAK and the Polish Investigators didn't make a report of pilot error. In fact they haven't made any report yet.

So, what happened?

my theory has been constantly adjusted as the info is coming in. Currently, I'm hung up on the fact that they were flying autopilot almost to the end.

LOL

What?

Nice rhetoric.

So when I point out that somebody who 100% believes the Russian viewpoint of the plane crash - which came out only hours after the crash (which was very premature) also is quick to take the side of Russia over Poland on other issues, makes me paranoid and have an anti-Russian agenda?

Maybe you came to that conclusion because you are paranoid and have an Anti-Polish agenda.

You're paranoid because you make things up and completely ignore the fact that it's a joint investigation. Comeon, lets get your theory on what happened? Is it a massive coverup involving hundreds of traitorous Poles?

I don't know what happened and nobody in the world knows for sure what happened. Anybody who says he knows for sure what happened is full of baloney.

What did I make up?

anyway...I'll do my best to ignore the mediawatch.
I think their TAWS did not have the airport terrain info, that's why they ignored it. I think the crew FORGOT about the dip. There are not many questions left in my mind... I would like to know if they really asked for russian navigator and who turned them down.

You keep mentioning a Russian investigation, and saying that the Russian government released information, when that's not true. It's like you're ignoring the fact that it's a joint investigation. The only thing official regarding the crash is what comes from MAK and the Polish investigators. So far that includes a transcript of the CVR, and verification that everything was in working order based on the information from the FDR. From the CVR transcripts, we can see some problems. The crew was quite a bit lower than they were supposed to be, and seemed to have been calling out altitudes based on the radar altimeter. The simple fact that the crew knew that they were below MDA, makes it pilot error. Now why that pilot error occurred, that's what people are trying to figure out.

I don't think that Polish Air Force is inherently unsafe, but they've nearly managed to kill me recently due to extremely sloppy airmanship. They've already killed quite a few of their brass in the CASA crash, which was down to crew error. And that same morning, the presidential YAK landed without being cleared. That is just ridiculous, and those are concrete cases there.

If there was pilot error, it may not be the pilot's fault.

Just like somebody driving a car crashes because they make an error when somebody throws an object at their car or oil on the road.

Are you suggesting that the Pilot attempted an approach through no fault of his own?

Last time I checked, they were told clearly that the conditions were dire and that Smolensk-North couldn't accept them. What made them attempt an approach in such circumstances?

Anyway, I see that you can offer absolutely no proof to back up your statements. Essentially, it's your imagination vs the Polish State. I know who I'd trust!

Pilots land in cloudy weather all the time.

Once again we don't have definite confirmation of what he actually heard or knew outside of the RUSSIAN version of things. Even the link YOU provided stated that what the Russian tower said to him could have been misintrepreted by minor changes of the inflections of the Russian sylables and word used by the Russian tower.


LOL

Look who's talking.

A so called Polish guy taking what the Russians say as the Gospel truth. Even if what they said about the crash was premature.

A so called Polish guy who doesn't even raise and eyebrow when he hears that some Russian police were looting the dead Poles. INSTEAD your FIRST reaction is defend these thug Russian police by looking around for Polish bad behavior to justify Russian bad behavior.

A so called Polish guy who seems to care more about Russia then Poland on topics outside of this one.

A so called Polish guy who seems to get an adrenaline rush a putting a microscope on anything negative about Poles in other topics.

There is no way anybody can prove anything to you, because if the source is critical of your Russia you arbitrarily dismiss it. If the source is Anti-Poland and Pro-Russia THEN you think if counts as "proof".

The only proof you show is that you have a Pro-Russia and Anti-Poland agenda here.