Citizen-led Initiative on Abortion Law in Poland

Yes, Polish abortion laws are good. We need more Poles. Not less Poles.

But, I support abortion in nations like the U.S. There it is generally a good thing because alot of the trash get abortions.

Why 'we'? You aren't a Pole and have never even been to Poland.


What a dreadful thing to say.

Yes, that's my stance as well. It should be the last resort.

The thing is that there is too little energy going in educating kids in contraception and family planning. There is no social network for women who decide to raise a child on their own, and the very same people who prohibit abortion will ostracize a single mother. The hypocrisy is really depressing.

The Church of England's position is for choice. They allow only 3 exceptions. I've outlined my position earlier, post 27. We must see it as a humanitarian issue and not a legalistic one.

I looked at you post, but it doesn't say the exceptions, what are they? Same as abortion law in Poland?

If a church position is to be favoured then it is that one. I believe the exceptions to be serious foetal abnormality, elevated duress levels of the mother and rape. Delicate and serious discretion needs to be applied. As I said, it is our duty to protect and guide a life to be into being. To do otherwise would be to ridicule the most basic of biological processes. Everything has to evolve and flourish and be given a chance to do so. A legalistic approach takes that away as I mentioned in post 27. However, I'm by no means a fanatic as many in the Christian Right in America are. I had a major debate with a poster called gunslinger and he was waaaaaaay off to the right. I challenged him on the issue. I believe that blanket positions like 'personhood begins at conception' and defending it 100% ignores social realities. That's why exceptions should exist but be used sparingly and with the utmost tact. Life is not black and white so my predilection for guiding a life to fruition is determined by common sense.

Merged: Abortion

Not sure if we had this topic but if so it was a long time ago as I do not see a thread on it currently.

What is your view on Abortion?

Should it be legal or illegal?

I personally like the law currently in Poland, that it is illegal, but in exceptional situations it is allowed, such as if the woman's life is at risk and a few other criteria, but other than, keep it illegal. Obviously we have the problem with illegal abortion clinics in Poland but that is not enough of a reason to legalize it.

What's the point in banning it when you can hop across the border to get it done anyway?

Heck, you can get it done abroad at the NFZ's expense if you so wish.

Then they can go and do it across the boarder. If a Polish person does not like the law in Poland he can leave, as many do. Other countries legalizing it does not mean Poland has to follow suit like sheep.

this is too complicated thing.. in unmarried togethership, it is usually easy to classify, when female complains and applies to the law, most of the time, it is considered as rape.. but, in married togetherships, there is no such a thing like rape. Maybe, most of us are products of rapes in marriages..

Not to call a sexual relation a rape, what is needed? Simple, agreement by both sides, by female and by male, isn't it. When marrying, the both sides say "yes" to togethership, that also means "yes" to making baby too. But, are they asked how many babies? No. Usually husbands make decisions about the number of babies. So, even if wife doesn't want another baby, she is not listened to and another baby is made. This isn't a rape, either? It is. But, woman can't apply anywhere and they will have a baby who won't be seen as rape product. If we think older days, probably, most of us are rape products. Women in marriages just don't have voices. In unmarried sexual relations, if forced, we hear their voices of females about the rape and since it is unmarried relation, all institutions including religion institutions and laws usually side with females and put males into jails. So, while similar things happening in sexual relations including rapes in marriages too, why don't we hear their voices of institutions, religious institutions, etc? Simple, they force people to marry and they don't do this for ethics morals etc, but, to make some benefits for themselves.

Anyway. Everybody knows such things already. Then, why did I tell these, rapes in marriages too? For this reason: Okay, usually richer couples can solve their abortion problems by travelling to Austria etc - but, what will poorer masses do? It is easy: What happens if wife goes to law and says, "it was a rape in marriage", what will the judge do? has to accept as things inside marriages are totally on declarations only.. The judge can't break marriage either if wife and husband say they'll stay married.. So, there is rape and couple can do abortion legally. It doesn't have to be rape. Even in accidental cases, a rape claim is done by wife and abortion is done. So simple.

If my opinion is asked about abortion; First of all, the decision of making baby should be left only and only to women whether in married relation or unmarried relation. Then, unwanted pregnancies will be much less and abortion won't be a serious issue then and women will be free to do abortion then as they are women themselves who really know unwanted pregnancy better.

Btw, abortion/killing of very old people who are in dying beds too can be made legal. If euthanasia is made legal, painless methods can be used for such old people too.

Actually, the worst thing with the current law is that the vulnerable are at risk. If you think that it's acceptable for vulnerable women to have their physical and mental health harmed - great :)

What on earth are you blabbering on about delph? What part of my post has made you reach this conclusion?

The part about "oh, they can just go across the border".

Most people can. The vulnerable often can't.

It's not rocket science to see that a ban can be completely ignored by anyone who has the means to do so - but vulnerable people in society often don't have the means to do so.

So what would your solution be? Do not have the ban so that vulnerable people who cannot go abroad stay in Poland and have it done illegally? Having it done illegally usually has costs, high costs, so if someone cannot leave the country to have it done due to money problems they are unlikely to be able to do it in Poland illegally. Or how about the education system gets a bit of a revamp? Most education nowdays, is liberal propaganda. This is even starting in Poland. How about explaining the problems of abortion early on and not encouraging youngsters to 'hook up' as long as they keep it safe, as these methods can sometimes backfire, but try promoting some of the currently considered 'old fashioned,' family values.

"Old fashined" family system is a little problematic system as it is patriarchial system which isn't natural really. Nest is made by female. So, leave such decisions including abortion to females. It is their bodies anyway that will take the risk. If we men were the ones who become pregnants, would you let them women decide on us? Definitely not. So, let them women decide themselves and make their own laws about abortion too.

Abortion is a terribly difficult subject to discuss fairly and openly as it raises a lot of emotions.

If I may add my two groszes worth of opinion.

People make mistakes in life and we would generally agree that people should be given a second chance or even a third or fourth. But when it comes to a few subjects, of which abortion is one of them, then second chances are not allowed and I think it's unfair.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is considered to be the greatest sin and is unforgivable the bible says. The bible also says that God sees all other sin as the same with none being of greater importance than another. So, the question is why does the Church major on this issue? So, Sex before marriage ( as that isn't allowed ) is the same as lying to someone in God's eyes but not in a priest's or Vicar's eyes. Something tells me that this is wrong somewhere! The Church always seems to want to condemn and keep people feeling guilty - kind of exactly the opposite of why Jesus came to the earth, isn't it?

I don't believe in a blanket abortion ban, but I also don't believe making it more open than it already is in places like the UK and US is also the answer. We must learn that our actions have repercussions and sometimes we have to live with the results of our actions. Education for young people is the best answer to avoid unwanted pregnancies and surely it would be better for the government and the church to put their resources there rather than condemning people. Also, supporting victims of rape in their individual decisions is far more important that condemning them for aborting their unwanted foetus.

People make mistakes, do stupid things and make bad decisions. Surely the answer is to support them, help them and allow them to make the best choice for them - even if we don't agree?

Churches, mosques, etc.. When they put their noses into "this world" things, confusions are unavoidable. They need to focus themselves more about "next world" etc things.. Churches, mosques, etc already completed their missions about "this world", said their words about this world. But, they still want to play major role in "this world" rules, laws, etc and we know why ..

Lets be honest.. These religion institutes follow the science, don't they? Yes, so. So, when an invention in science is made, then, we hear them, their opinions of religious scholars. For example, condom was invented long time ago, but, the church said ok to it just a few months ago.. So, the science is leader and it doesn't need approval of religious institutions anymore. Today is not same as centuries ago when there was no birth control, when it wasn't known when the embrio becomes a new life, etc etc. You'll tell Church or mosque or whatever, for ex, that after 22 weeks, risk for woman is more.. then, this will be approved by church/mosque/etc too? why necessary? isn't it enough to hear it from science only? It must be.. Maybe, those religious scholars, priests, imams, etc should learn science first and they themselves should discover or invent and then, we can listen to them too.. While there are experts, knowledgable people in such "this world" things, listening to those religious scholars on such this world things including abortion is nonsense.. Anyway. This abortion thing decision should be left to women only and I guess scientists including social scientists will agree in this with me.

It makes sense to let someone decide for themself whether or not they have an abortion.

reuters.com/article/2011/10/10/poland-election-palikot-idUSL5E7LA2JL20111010

indeed

there is nothing worse than an unwanted child, in or out of wedlock

get those rosaries away from the ovaries